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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
 Posted - 02/16/2002 : 23:23:07
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I wrote a post titled Homophobia that caused some angry words between myself and between others on the subject of Homosexuality,HIV and AIDS. This was never my intention. I had no agenda other then to say that I did not understand why a nurturing love between two people of the same sex could possibly be anything but a positive thing. I chose the wrong title and it has taken on a life that far exceeds my intent. The love I wanted to talk about is a positive thing in my world and here it has become anything but a positive experiance for most anyone who has responded.
I believe in Love Peace Happiness Joy and Harmony as the five points in my minds star that I use in my life to cope with whatever the universe hands me. My illness, my family, my new and old freinds and the people who have shared with me here on this forum. I posted something that has ended up unsettleing me.
I also believe that disagreement is a healthy thing. We change and grow through the sharing of opinions. I get angry but I never MEAN to start conflict only discussion. Perhaps someone will point out that I am giving myself to much credit for the content of my Homophobia thread but still I like life in more balance. Therefore I just wanted to say that no matter who said what to whom I hope someone took away something good from the subject and discussions and any conflict be quickly forgotten.
I have been on a few other forums where people have actually gotten into fights and quit visiting the forums because of disagreements with people who have all come to one place to share a common idea. As we are all true Skeptics here I know that will never happen and certainly not over anything I posted.
Love Peace Joy Happiness and Harmony!
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission!
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Archistrategos
New Member
28 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2002 : 03:20:34 [Permalink]
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Doc, shit happens! This kind of things occur all the time, there are as many opinions as there is people. I bet there are no hard feelings between them, they are used to this. 
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2002 : 09:22:09 [Permalink]
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I learned a lot from the other thread, and hope it contiues! No need to apologize, Dr Shari. Disagreement is constructive. If people choose to leave, it'd be a greater loss to them.
I'm stumblin through the parking lot of an invisible 7-eleven. ZZ-Top |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2002 : 10:18:58 [Permalink]
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I wrote a post titled Homophobia that caused some angry words between myself and between others on the subject of Homosexuality, HIV and AIDS. This was never my intention.
Shari, Shari, Shari, what are you talking about? Your thread got four pages with forty-nine replies within a few days. Threads that everybody agrees with shrivel and die after only a handful of responses, that's no fun. You must never apologize for providing mental stimulation. None of us can learn anything if we already have the same opinion.
I had no agenda other then to say that I did not understand why a nurturing love between two people of the same sex could possibly be anything but a positive thing. I chose the wrong title and it has taken on a life that far exceeds my intent. The love I wanted to talk about is a positive thing in my world and here it has become anything but a positive experiance for most anyone who has responded.
I picked up a lot more of an agenda than just the title. I'm still picking it up in this very comment. The view being expressed is very black and white, "if you ain't fo' us you're again' us" type of statement. No middle ground allowed.
Those of us that did express a middle ground point of view were responded to as if we had taken a completely negative one. I found that fascinating, it might be an interesting topic to pursue on it's own-people who are conditioned to make a response doing so without the appropriate stimulus.
The oft repeated Hallmark Card sentiments are a bit disingenuous too. Because if this kind of "sweetness & light/nurturing love" was what was actually going on there couldn't be an epidemic. Admittedly it must be a tough job trying to convince people that something which is the very definition of deviance is normal. Personally my opinion would be more likely swung by the use of logic over name calling and misdirection.
I believe in Love Peace Happiness Joy and Harmony as the five points in my minds star that I use in my life to cope with whatever the universe hands me. My illness, my family, my new and old freinds and the people who have shared with me here on this forum. I posted something that has ended up unsettleing me.
Why be unsettled because people disagree with you? You can tell you've never been a husband or father or you would be used to people telling you that you were wrong.
I also believe that disagreement is a healthy thing. We change and grow through the sharing of opinions. I get angry but I never MEAN to start conflict only discussion.
I know that on this thread I had to examine my under lying motives before each post because the entire topic has become a dangerous one to even slightly disagree with. But this is a Skeptics forum and one should be able to express skepticism even about the Gay socio-political agenda vs. harsh reality.
Perhaps someone will point out that I am giving myself to much credit for the content of my Homophobia thread but still I like life in more balance. Therefore I just wanted to say that no matter who said what to whom I hope someone took away something good from the subject and discussions and any conflict be quickly forgotten.
That's why we do this stuff.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2002 : 13:28:50 [Permalink]
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I agree with Slater and Badger, Shari. If I don't have a chance to talk about subjects of contention, I would never learn why I'm wrong.
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game. |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2002 : 15:55:51 [Permalink]
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My main point of upset is not that it seemed to get argumentative but that it went from the LOVE part to AIDS and who was to blame. A healthy argument or disagreement does lead to growth but somehow I guess I thought at this forum where we have taken the relilgous angle out of Homosexuality people would be open minded about it and I was surprised that it is obviously still a very scary subject for so many people. I want someone to tell me without the AIDS and HIV angle what is wrong with Homosexuality.
Plus I was asked what my gay agenda was. There is no agenda about Gays. It was about love. The exchange of information is good but some of it very incorrect. I just didn't expect the response it evoked. I am surprised more then sad I guess.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 11:10:40 [Permalink]
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My main point of upset is not that it seemed to get argumentative but that it went from the LOVE part to AIDS and who was to blame.
You were the one to go from the LOVE part to AIDS in the first paragraph of your first post. As for who was to "blame" that topic never came up. The only "fault finding" and "moral judgements" that were made were being made by you. You condemned those whose opinion differed from yours from the title on.
We (mostly me) were pointing out hypocrisy.
First in name calling by a group that has fought being called nasty names. If I started a thread entitled FAG HAGS I would be unrealistic to think that I wouldn't raise people's ire. Homophobic is the same sort of infantile mud slinging.
Secondly the hypocrisy of claiming that other people aren't doing enough to cure AIDS while the group that is actually contracting the disease does not practice prevention. Prevention being the ONLY way not to die from it. You twist this into 'those poor Gays are being blamed.'
A healthy argument or disagreement does lead to growth but somehow I guess I thought at this forum where we have taken the relilgous angle out of Homosexuality people would be open minded about it and I was surprised that it is obviously still a very scary subject for so many people.
Morality is not necessarily a religious concept. Nor is everything that religion says is wrong actually right.
AND being "open minded" doesn't mean 'agreeing with Shari.'
I want someone to tell me without the AIDS and HIV angle what is wrong with Homosexuality.
Sigh, is it possible to do this without your construing it as an attack on Gays? I doubt it because so far you have taken any statement that didn't idolize them as HATRED.
You don't find anything the least bit wrong with homosexuality then that's just fine. But I don't get the feeling that you want to have an open discussion that would involve the social acceptability of mental illness.
Plus I was asked what my gay agenda was. There is no agenda about Gays. It was about love.
I have always wondered why people get so very upset with the idea that a person of one sex could be in love, mentally, emotionally and physically with another person of the same sex… I just can't get my mind around the idea of people being homophobic… there are men who are threatened just being around Gay men… The religous -- abhor homosexuals… They go straight into hating a whole estimated 10-15% of the worlds population If it looks like a duck and waddles like a duck then it's an agenda.
There's love and there's love.
If I told you that my dog and I love each other "mentally" you'd say that that was sweet, "emotionally" you'd say ' how nice, a boy and his faithful dog,' "physically" might just get a somewhat different reaction from you.
Would that mean that you had a problem, because it doesn't affect you, and Sparky and I are just fine with the relationship? Would that make you a Caineophobic? The religious roundly condemn Zoophilism, so you'd be closed minded if you agreed with them.
Or would that mean that I was the one with the problem?
The exchange of information is good but some of it very incorrect.
If the information is factually incorrect then by all means correct it. If it's just "politically incorrect" then save your energy.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 15:16:12 [Permalink]
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"Zoophilism" *LOL* Geez Slater, what is it, that you do again?
Guess me is pretty mixed up, when it comes to homosexuality. It is exciting to think of two women, or to see, engaged in a homosexual act. Butt honestly, don't want to think about, or see, two men in that way, (actually don't even like to think about or see, people of me own age group engaged in sexual acts either). It's just a "turn-off." Eewwww!
In both cases, IMO, it is perverse, but as long as no one is forced or hurt by it, in a free society, guess its alright. Yet, my own reaction isn't likely to change. On one hand, will seek out a peek, and on the other hand, will avoid a confrontation by any means possible. *L* But that's just me.
Love, now that's a word, that can take on so many different meanings, welp, just not sure me knows what it means anymore. Still me knows it, when me feels it.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2002 : 21:57:40 [Permalink]
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"Zoophilism" *LOL* Geez Slater, what is it, that you do again?
The pooch and I are just Platonic (or is that Plutonic?) friends. But Zoophilism is one of the things that the San Francisco couple whose dogs ate their neighbor have coming out in their trial. Since the girl who was the victim was a lesbian the story has something for everyone.
Butt honestly, don't want to think about, or see, two men in that way
"Butt" honestly?! Where is Dr Freud when you're slipping?
In both cases, IMO, it is perverse, but as long as no one is forced or hurt by it, in a free society, guess its alright.
In other words, it's disgusting but it's really none of your business. I will be greatly surprised if you aren't called to task for not toeing the PC line.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2002 : 07:03:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Zoophilism" *LOL* Geez Slater, what is it, that you do again?
The pooch and I are just Platonic (or is that Plutonic?) friends. But Zoophilism is one of the things that the San Francisco couple whose dogs ate their neighbor have coming out in their trial. Since the girl who was the victim was a lesbian the story has something for everyone.
Oh my, this thing just gets curiouser and curiouser.
quote:
In both cases, IMO, it is perverse, but as long as no one is forced or hurt by it, in a free society, guess its alright.
In other words, it's disgusting but it's really none of your business. I will be greatly surprised if you aren't called to task for not toeing the PC line.
I have been reading a bit about E-prime, basically a variation of modern English that does not use the verb "to be" or any of its conjugates. It might be useful in these cases to say, "I find it disgusting but I don't make it my business." This, to me, sounds much more like a personal statement than, "It's disgusting but it's really none of my business," which seems more like, "It's my opinion that everyone should find this practice disgusting..."
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2002 : 07:46:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
"Zoophilism" *LOL* Geez Slater, what is it, that you do again?
The pooch and I are just Platonic (or is that Plutonic?) friends. But Zoophilism is one of the things that the San Francisco couple whose dogs ate their neighbor have coming out in their trial. Since the girl who was the victim was a lesbian the story has something for everyone.
Oh my, this thing just gets curiouser and curiouser.
quote:
In both cases, IMO, it is perverse, but as long as no one is forced or hurt by it, in a free society, guess its alright.
In other words, it's disgusting but it's really none of your business. I will be greatly surprised if you aren't called to task for not toeing the PC line.
I have been reading a bit about E-prime, basically a variation of modern English that does not use the verb "to be" or any of its conjugates. It might be useful in these cases to say, "I find it disgusting but I don't make it my business." This, to me, sounds much more like a personal statement than, "It's disgusting but it's really none of my business," which seems more like, "It's my opinion that everyone should find this practice disgusting..."
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game.
The Zoophilism has been suppressed.
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