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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2002 : 06:38:25
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Poll Question:
For no reasons other than I think it could be fun and we seem to have a fair number of historically educated and astute people here:
Who was the greatest of Great Captains? For those unfamiliar with military history, "Great Captain" is a term reserved for those military leaders who displayed a skill and genius more than a little above their contemporaries, but for purposes of this poll, you may define it as you wish, so long as you define it.
And, of course, to make this interesting, you should defend your choice.
Later, maybe we can do some notional Great Captain death matches.
There are many, many more possibilities, but the poll allowed me only 8 answers.
And, no, I haven't answered yet.
My kids still love me.
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Poll Status:
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Total Votes: 0 counted »» |
Last Vote:
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 07:32:18 [Permalink]
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This is really kind of a tough one. All of the choices were representing different times and technologies. My second choice would have been Bonaparte. My third, Hitler. Egotistical madmen, all.
http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/alexander/
f
"Don't tell me your doubts; I've got enough doubts of my own. Tell me something you BELIEVE in!"
Brother Dave Gardner |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 08:30:29 [Permalink]
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Hitler is an interesting thought, and one I will ask you to defend, even if only a little bit.
I had to go ahead and answer so I could view the results. Off the list, I picked Alexander, though I'm not ready to stick with him as the undisputed champ just yet.
Others I'd include on the list of possibilities, not by any means inclusive even of my own knowledge:
Stonewall Jackson
Scipio Africanus
Genghis Khan
Tamerlane
Shaka
Fredrick the Great
Alfred the Great
Wellington
Rommel
Zhukov
Guderian
Hernando Cortes
George Washington (laugh if you like; I can defend his inclusion on the list, even if I can't place him at the top)
And one more caveat: choice of a Great Captain is not meant to imply anything about the morality of the cause or the ethics of the individual; this is strictly an academically military question.
My kids still love me. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 10:07:42 [Permalink]
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Ghenigis Khan. He was the most effective military leader. He solidified his control of areas and made sure his supply lines were unhampered. Only his death stopped his conquest of the known world.
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chee
New Member
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 10:39:21 [Permalink]
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Agree with choice and sentiment about Alexander. What other alcoholic, bisexual, mass murderer's name is still invoked for good luck in certain parts of the world?
I'm teasing, of course. When looking at Alexander's life from the 4th century Macedonian point of view, no other warrior king comes close. He behaved exactly as a man born to the crown and sword should.
A colder place I've never known, than with someone but yet alone. |
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chee
New Member
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 10:58:59 [Permalink]
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Agree with choice and sentiment about Alexander. What other alcoholic, bisexual, mass murderer's name is still invoked for good luck in certain parts of the world?
I'm teasing, of course. When looking at Alexander's life from the 4th century Macedonian point of view, no other warrior king comes close. He behaved exactly as a man born to the crown and sword should.
A colder place I've never known, than with someone but yet alone. |
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chee
New Member
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 11:04:22 [Permalink]
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Don't know why the last post showed up twice. Sorry all.
Garrette, got to thinking about your lists and realized there was something missing. Perhaps I should do another poll and include a few great women warriors. Might include such "great captains" as Queen Bouddica of the Iceni, Septima Zenobia of Palmyra, Joan of Arc, Ahotep of Egypt, Zabibi and Samsi of Arabia, Himoko of Japan, and Empress Maud of Germany. What do you think?
A colder place I've never known, than with someone but yet alone. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 11:08:24 [Permalink]
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Well, Chee, I know about Boudicea and won't object to her inclusion on the list, though there'd have to be STRONG argumentation for placing her at the top.
Ditto for Maud.
Ditto for Joan, though that argument promises lots of fun.
The rest I admit to having no real knowledge of.
Valiant: I nearly chose Genghis Khan for the same reasons, but much of the Mongolian conquests were not his personal doing, though none of it could have happened without his consolidation of power and beginning it all. In any case, I think he's definitely on the short list.
My kids still love me. |
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chee
New Member
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 11:38:38 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Well, Chee, I know about Boudicea and won't object to her inclusion on the list, though there'd have to be STRONG argumentation for placing her at the top.
[/quote]
Was thinking in terms of a separate list because realistically no woman has matched the overall achievements of the majority of your men. However, I would argue that given the opportunities and societal viewpoints of their times, many of these women accomplished tremendous things in the face of great adversity.
A colder place I've never known, than with someone but yet alone. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 11:58:30 [Permalink]
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Well, I did say you could define Great Captain however you like. If you define it as the ratio of achievement in relation to obstacles, then you might make a case.
My kids still love me. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 13:12:56 [Permalink]
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I kinda thought mentioning Hitler might stir somebody up. He has to be ranked as a Great Captain, like it or not, although certainly not the greatest.
Hitler has fascinated me - My father served in Europe and I had an uncle killed in the Pacific. Through sheer will power, a little luck, and a real talent for treachery, Hitler rose from a mediocre artist living on the street to one of the most powerful and feared men in the world. He was also a superb orator.
I have read (don't remember where) that if he'd not been so fixated upon the Jews, Romney, et al, and kept his promises to the Russians, he might well have taken over Europe and kept it. Interesting theory, anyway.
Here's a good link to History's most incredable lunatics.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/index.htm
f
"Don't tell me your doubts; I've got enough doubts of my own. Tell me something you BELIEVE in!"
Brother Dave Gardner |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 13:21:28 [Permalink]
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So in your definition, filthy, Great Captain encompasses the political genius behind the military accomplishment? Or are you positing a more direct link between Hitler and Germany's military success?
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(Dammit. I don't REALLY want this to get too heavy. Just seems to be the way I write. I'd really rather this be light banter.
And along those lines, I'll toss out my real candidate for number one Great Captain: The Noble Duke of York)
My kids still love me. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 14:30:00 [Permalink]
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Did Hitler ever command in battle?
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 14:50:09 [Permalink]
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TD: Hitler was the overall strategic commander of the Wehrmacht from the mid-1930s until his death. Both the early success, and ultimate defeat, of the German war machine can be laid directly at his doorstep.
I'd like to nominate Robert E. Lee. Though I do not support the causes he was fighting for, I have to admit that he did remarkably well in a conflict in which he was always inferior to the enemy, numerically, materially, and in training.
It wasn't until the Union commanders decided to slug it out inch by bloody inch, and accept the massive casualties, that he was defeated -- as much by attrition as by any other factor.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 14:51:38 [Permalink]
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[quote]Did Hitler ever command in battle? [/quote]
No.
[quote]Well, I did say you could define Great Captain however you like. If you define it as the ratio of achievement in relation to obstacles, then you might make a case. [/quote]
--to quote myself.
It's partially for this reason that I include Alfred the Great on the list, the other part being lasting impact.
My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2002 : 14:57:36 [Permalink]
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[quote]Posted by Donnie B:
I'd like to nominate Robert E. Lee. Though I do not support the causes he was fighting for, I have to admit that he did remarkably well in a conflict in which he was always inferior to the enemy, numerically, materially, and in training.
It wasn't until the Union commanders decided to slug it out inch by bloody inch, and accept the massive casualties, that he was defeated -- as much by attrition as by any other factor. [/quote]
I nearly put him on my second list, and I don't object to you including him, but I think he owed too much of his success to Jackson to rank with the others.
To be frank, I nearly put Grant on there, too.
I have some quibbles about your specific argument, though. When I have more time, maybe. Leaving for Reserves soon. Should have left already.
My kids still love me. |
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