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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2002 : 01:01:17 [Permalink]
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By the same process using other filters you could also arrive at anything else.
You're right. The Bible, especially the alleged words of Christ, is so absurdly full of contradictions that the mess could be construed to say damn near anything. It's a curious mishmash of psychosexual/psychosocial and Freudian/ego driven appeals to our human nature. At least that's how I see it. If it were consistant enough to have a set of fairly clear messages, I doubt it would have been so popular for so long. It wouldn't make it through the logical meat grinder in one piece. There's something about the poetic and ambiguous nature of it that makes it interpretable in ways to suit anyone and everyone, with a little imagination. One would be hard pressed to come up with such a clever marketing job is how I see it. Coversely, believers would probably say it's the Bible's inherent brilliance, attributable only to a higher power, that's given it enduring popularity. The only thing I know with certainty about Christ, or the author(s) who created him (should that be the case) is that they had a helluva sales angle.
Ron White |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 10:21:57 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure that I can go along with the idea that some people "need" religion.
It sounds pretty vain on our part-we can think for ourselves Xians can't. We are not different types of people than they are.
As I see it people don't need religion because they can't think for themselves. Rather they can't think for themselves because they have been subjected to religion from the minute that they were born.
It's like saying that they'll never be able to get rid of cigarettes because so many people are addicted. When no one would be addicted if it weren't for the cigarettes to begin with.
Same goes for religion. It isn't a solution to the problem of lack of independent thought. It is the cause of the problem.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 11:54:32 [Permalink]
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I think slater is right. We are conditioned to hear that "we need religion" from birth and it's hard to imagine a system without it because we never really had one. You could argue that communist nations fit that but I don't think it's really the same thing when the official state policy is atheistic. That's does not truly reflect the minds of the people living there.
It would be interesting to see a society without any religious influence. Not even some minority factions because as we have seen in this country, the minority voice speaks loudest.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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DVF
Skeptic Friend
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 13:03:44 [Permalink]
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I hate getting into arguments over word usage, but I can only agree with saying that people "need" religion in the sense that crack addicts need a fix. The want it, crave it, can't function without it sometimes. I would prefer to say that people feel dependent on religion once they build their belief structure around it. They create their own need for it.
On the other side, I'm willing to bet that in a society free of religious mumbo jumbo, someone would just make something up, and plenty of people would join in. Religion attracts people on a host of different levels. It takes away personal responsibility and gives them a clear set of rules to follow. It's not a matter, IMO, of people not being able to think for themselves. It's a matter of people not wanting to.
The wages of sin is death, but the hours are good. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 13:33:04 [Permalink]
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I think that people can't live without religion is because they are conditioned to think they need it from birth on. Like I said, we hear that people need religion constantly.
In a society without religion and where people were taught to think a bit more critically and where television and print wouldn't allow frauds like John Edwards to peddle their nonsense it might be a bit harder for a religion to pop up because people would ask a lot of questions right away. Right now our society is geared towards believing this nonsense and the media doesn't help with all of the ghost story and amazing phenomena shows.
Sure, in this society people do need religion because if you took it away suddenly it would be like taking the floor away and their would be a chunk or something missing.
But try to imagine a society that never had all of that, where the media would do real investigations of incredible claims and exposed frauds for what they are. Yeah it's hard to imagine but then Earth has never seen such a society.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 17:17:45 [Permalink]
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Well, I for one am starting to sober up without needing religion in a "dont know, don't care" sort of way.
I respect those who follow their religions rather than paying simple lip service to their beliefs and find wiccan, Native American, and other pagan religions far more respectable than most, because frankly, so many people join religions as "fire insurance."
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 17:42:12 [Permalink]
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[quote]
I respect those who follow their religions rather than paying simple lip service to their beliefs ...
[/quote]
Why? If their religions are built on fantasy why respect someone who follows it more than someone who hardly gives it a second thought. What do you find admirable about "faith?"
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
[i]The Preparation of the Gospel[/i] |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 18:34:36 [Permalink]
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About people 'needing' Religion:
When I said that people need religion I did not mean to imply, that we or I as atheists were in way better because we don't need religion.
I said that religion can be replaced with something similar. I had a very loose defintion of something similar hear that would for example be able to include communism. Yes it does not include anything about the afterlife but it gives people a sense and a reason for their existance and it is based on unquestionable and selfevident truths.
I think that this craving for a higher purpose is that we are born with. Everywhere and everywhen people have been asking for their reason to exist. And everywhere some helpfull soul has been found that was willing to tell them what they wanted to hear.
"Yes, there is a reason for your existance. Yes, your suffering is not in wain. There is an absoulte right and wrong, but luckily for you, you don't have to make any hard decision yourself, I can do that for you."
What is admirable about 'faith' compared to mere lipservices to ones beliefs?
The fact that they are being consequent and honest is admirable it is pretty rare among humans.
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2002 : 22:10:58 [Permalink]
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[quote]
About people 'needing' Religion:
[/quote]
I'm fully confident that most others, as I, would have survived childhood without Grim's Fairy Tales, and adulthood without a Bible, Koran, etc. However I agree completely with DVF that in a world lacking religion, someone would create some variation. And RE LARS_H suggestions of something similar acting as replacement therapy for the Faithful, one doesn't have to go as far as Communism to find thriving mini-examples. L. Ron Hubbard, Tony Robbins and a myriad of others have capitalized (greatly) on their own synthetic versions minus the Pie-In-The-Sky stuff. Aside from his high-energy, charisma, and consummate sales abilities (sound familiar?) Tony's own clever device is switching cause-and-effect ("Took my advice… still not doing so well? Your attitude's still too negative!") Sound familiar? ("Pray harder…Have more faith!") Tony tells the most nominal of us to "Reach for the stars!" (religion's message is that "Man is a divine being… we are of importance beyond this [seemingly meaningless, for many, and maybe even awful dull] life… This is the way.") Others desperately want to hear a confident voice of sanity in a world gone crazy. Someone will fill that void… the money's there.
Robbins, Hubbard, and others, like the religions, mix unquestionably prudent (if common sense) advice with their obvious bunk and very questionable claims to make the whole package seem more credible. In my mind, all of this DOES DO HARM because a mind less intoxicated by fantasy is better equipped to deal with and enjoy what's real and possible, instead of wasting energy on pipe dreams. But admittedly, I'm in no position to question Tony, the Pope, and all the rest- after all, I don't own a helicopter and wear a pound of diamond-studded gold!
Ron White |
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