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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 08/03/2002 : 13:11:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't believe that God has this kind of perfect knowledge.
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I don't see God as being omniscient in the classical sense, of having total, perfect knowledge.
Fascinating. I wonder if there are any denominations of Christianity that wouldn't call you a false Christian because of that.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 15:00:24 [Permalink]
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On the contrary, God could have implanted His commandments into our minds so that we would have no choice but to obey them.
Or perhaps he could have "inspired" only one set of them?
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But that would have made us automotons instead of free-thinking human beings.
Which is only a valid criticism in a world where free-will apparently exists and is judged by us as "better." Had God created a world in which automatoncy (?) was the standard, and were we to judge that "better," we would neither be having this discussion nor think it was "bad" that we couldn't.
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The price of free will is that God must work through people, but that also means that people will put their own ideas into the mix, thus confusing the picture. God could easily correct that, but the price of free will is that He must allow us to live out our lives as WE see fit.
This too falls prey to my criticism above. There is no reason to assume God created free-will as it apparently exists because he had to. I can conceive of formulations which would allow for apparently free choices yet not result in "evil" consequences. Your argument that God was constrained by some existing principle of free-will is an philosophically arbitrary limitation of God's alleged power; one which you are woefully unqualified to make.
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As such, if people decide to add to, or change, or even throw out, His words, He has to let us do it. That then puts upon us the burden of deciding which are the words of God and which are the words of men. God will help us make that choice, through the Holy Spirit, but He will not force a decision upon us. As such, people are free to reject the Bible completely just as they free to take every word literally. Both are irrational extremes, but people are free to chose either one as they desire.
Can you now see that this is merely a product of the way God allegedly chose to do things, and not the way he had to do things?
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 19:43:31 [Permalink]
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As far as I can tell from your description of god is that he has no special abilities at all except that he's smarter than the rest of us and he loves us enough to condemn a predetermined portion of us to Hell for eternity. Sounds like Batman on steroids.
I do not believe they have been predetermined; that would contradict the doctrine of free will. If anyone is sent to Hell it is because they choose that destiny for themselves.
The irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 19:52:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
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The situation is that He was telling a parable, and those were the words of a character in the parable.
Ah yes, the mob boss telling his hitman a "story", all the while giving him a very meaningful look.
Nothing in the Bible supports that interpretation; you are reading into it your own bias against Christianity.
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It's certainly not out of context. Parable or not, the subject was words of Jesus that followers interpret as a license to kill.
There is no evidence that any follower of Christ used that as "a license to kill." And the proper context makes it clear that the verse was not intended in the way you insist it should be interpreted. You want desperately to prove that Christ was a fiend so you can justify dismissing His message. I don't care about that, but I wish you would be honest about it and not deliberately twist his words into something sinister.
If Christ wanted Hi followers to kill unbelievers He wouldn't have hinted at it or made it a part of a parable. He would have said it flat out, such as the things He said at the Sermon of the Mount. Yet nowhere in the Gospels can you find an unambiguous command by Him to anyone to go out and kill unbelievers, while you can find clear, unambiguous commands to go out and serve mankind and do good works.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 19:56:57 [Permalink]
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Fascinating. I wonder if there are any denominations of Christianity that wouldn't call you a false Christian because of that.
I'm sure there are any number who would, but that is not the point. It is not belief that makes a false Christian, but actions. In other words, a false Christian is not someone who believes unconventional things, but someone who calls himself a Christian who then turns around and commits acts that contradict Christ's commandments.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 20:02:05 [Permalink]
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Can you now see that this is merely a product of the way God allegedly chose to do things, and not the way he had to do things?
I'm not sure I'm following your srgument. God certainly chose to grant man free will, but once He did so He became constrained by that decision to certain actions.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 20:06:35 [Permalink]
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I would like to add one more comment:
If Christ had wanted His followers to kill unbelievers He would have not have said, if a man strike you on the left cheek, turn and offer Him your right, but would have said, if a man strike you on the left cheek, slay him with your sword.
Instead of saying, blessed are the peacemakers, He would have said blessed are the Holy assassins.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 21:06:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
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Can you now see that this is merely a product of the way God allegedly chose to do things, and not the way he had to do things?
I'm not sure I'm following your srgument. God certainly chose to grant man free will, but once He did so He became constrained by that decision to certain actions.
What prevented God from defining free will as "the ability to make uninfluenced choices between options that are either 'good' or 'neutral'"? Did he have to create 'evil choices' in order to fulfill some pre-existing qualification for free will? How about this: does "free will" necessitate the presence of "evil choices" simply by its very existence or could God have limited the choices possible?
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 21:30:27 [Permalink]
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What prevented God from defining free will as "the ability to make uninfluenced choices between options that are either 'good' or 'neutral'"? Did he have to create 'evil choices' in order to fulfill some pre-existing qualification for free will? How about this: does "free will" necessitate the presence of "evil choices" simply by its very existence or could God have limited the choices possible?
Hmmm. I believe that good and evil exist as universal concepts independent of God. (I realize that means we can judge God's actions, but I see nothing with that. God did not condemn Job for daring to question Him, but for questioning Him when he had not the knowledge to make an informed judgement.) As such, I believe that good and evil decisions exist independently of free will. Free will only means that we can make our own decisions without external pressure or force. As such, a man faced with the decision of killing an enemy or feeding and clothing him is free to decide what to do, even though most people would consider the former action evil and the latter good.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 21:44:04 [Permalink]
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I believe that good and evil exist as universal concepts independent of God.
How is this possible? This implies "good" and "evil" are absolutes. Absolute whats? Standards? Standards of what?
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 03:22:58 [Permalink]
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If any people go to Hell, and god created people, then there are a predetermined number, because god knew that it was making fallible humans. When one makes a car, one knows that no particular car is going to be in an accident, but one knows that there are going to be a percentage of people in accidents. When one makes infallible people, and one makes a Hell for them to go to, that says that it is predetermined that people will go to Hell. If God is really smart, he can come up with a pretty good percentage at any given moment, meaning that there probably is a predetermined number. If he's not smart enough to figure out what the percentages are, then why worship someone who really isn't very smart and cannot affect "Physical" reality once he has created it.
You say that this contradicts "free will." Of course it does. That's the point. When you start talking about gods and free will in the same sentence, you contradict yourself. To make your god viable, you've toned him down from the standard variety. You say things such as well, he really isn't that smart so he really didn't predetermined anything. You need to cripple your gods in order to be able to create them.
Would it be okay if you were wrong? Would you and your life still have value?
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I do not believe they have been predetermined; that would contradict the doctrine of free will.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/04/2002 03:30:48 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 03:31:57 [Permalink]
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The old "Battle Between Good and Evil Spirits." You'll like this lot. They believe in evil spirits too.
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Hmmm. I believe that good and evil exist as universal concepts independent of God.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 11:45:08 [Permalink]
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And let us not forget what Lars pointed out in another thread.
The bible says that god did not give man free will. It says that he was so pissed off that man chose free will that he damned everyone on earth and later had to send Jesus to square himself with himself (I never said it made any sense)
The talking snake gave man free will.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 08/04/2002 11:45:55 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 04:54:41 [Permalink]
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I know God exists because I see Him at work in my life every day
Echthroi, I would like to know how you 'know". How do you know that this is the work of God? Do you have some special relationship with him that most of those people in the world lack? Why has he chosen you over the rest of us?
No doubts, you said.
Why hasn't he given me the same knowledge as you. I have read the bible. I wanted to be a true believer. I prayed, and read, and tried to believe, but the doubts, and the contradictions, and the questions persisted. The more I read, the less I believed. Wasn't I created the same as you?
If it was my free choice, my fault, why would I make such a choice? Why would I want eternal peace so badly, and choose eternal damnation? This makes no sense to me. Wasn't I created in His image, as you were?
Of course, I realize that the reason for your knowledge of God may be that you are in fact omniscient, but this is a quality you have refused to grant your God.
Understand, I could care less what personal beleif system you have chosen. It is only my business because you have chosen to make it so by posting to this forum. Somehow though, you seem to have claimed a special knowledge of the bible. You know what is literal and what is not. Yet, your claims differ from so many others making the same claims. Why are you so special?
"Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/21/93
Edited by - tim on 08/05/2002 04:59:25
Edited by - tim on 08/05/2002 05:04:37 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2002 : 10:55:46 [Permalink]
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I do not believe they have been predetermined; that would contradict the doctrine of free will. If anyone is sent to Hell it is because they choose that destiny for themselves.
Since you have been abundantly clear that I have chosen hell for my hateful attitude towards your ignorance and bigotry (but, of course, Jesus instructed me not to suffer fools gladly) then might I ask? How does this heaven and hell based doctrine of so called free will differ from the thug who holds a gun to your head and demands your money or your life? The criminal gives you the same free will that your god does. Do what is against your better judgement or suffer terribly. What part of this is "free?"
In other words, a false Christian is not someone who believes unconventional things, but someone who calls himself a Christian who then turns around and commits acts that contradict Christ's commandments.
The christian church from day 1 has demanded that you confess sins of THOUGHT, word and deed. Are you now dispensing with the first two? And the Protestant doctrine of Grace over Works (least you become proud) is tossed in the old dumpster by you too.
God certainly chose to grant man free will, but once He did so He became constrained by that decision to certain actions.
Constrained by whom?
Where in the bible does god grant man free will? What was that fruit of the knowledge of good and evil thing about if man already had free will?
If Christ had wanted His followers to kill unbelievers He would have not have said, if a man strike you on the left cheek, turn and offer Him your right, but would have said, if a man strike you on the left cheek, slay him with your sword.
What does being an unbeliever have to do with striking cheeks? Jesus told you to take any shit the Roman authorities handed you and like it. He also told you, several times and in no uncertain terms to kill unbelievers.
Since you can't see past the fairytale let me explain it to you simply.
None of the demands on you behavior in the NT are coming from god. There was no Jesus, there is no god. They are all coming from the Imperial Roman Government. The entire book is about accepting civil authority because it comes from god. Pay your taxes; follow the laws, if you are poor and miserable so much the better-god loves you for it-eye of the needle and all that. If slapped by a Roman let him slug you a second time. If you are a slave always obey your master. If you are a woman always obey your husband. If you have do anything wrong, if you have said anything wrong, if you have even thought anything wrong--go straight to the only state sanctioned church and confess to the state appointed priest--he'll know what to do.
If you hold any religious beliefs other than Christianity you are, by the edict of Theodosius the Great, guilty of high treason. Your property is forfeit to the state and you, and your immediate family, are subject to execution.
Get it Spunky? None of this crap comes from god. It comes from Imperial Rome.
Imperial Rome is long gone you don't have to follow it's edicts anymore. You are free. There are no more slaves, there are no more serfs.
I believe that good and evil exist as universal concepts independent of God.
Obviously you haven't read the OT where god claims to be the author of both good and evil.
Who is it then, if these concepts are independent of god, that gets to decide which is which?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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