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Shlomo Alkabetz
New Member
5 Posts |
 Posted - 11/13/2004 : 14:03:47 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist
Thanks for the welcome. I'd love to see a study, an honest one, on why people leave church or religion. Unfortunately, it was because of 'bad experiences' within the church, and that's admittedly pretty sad.
This being a skeptic board, I guess I can say this.....I have a problem with things like the Barna reports becuase I'm almost positive that a few times old Barna had the results he wanted and then started digging for and compiling statisitcs til he had the ones that would verify the already-decided upon results.
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 14:21:07 [Permalink]
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Welcome Shlomo Alkabetz
quote:
Jusr my opinion, but as for science vs the Bible, the bible wins everytime. The scientific types refuse to deal with anything they can't explain and there are just too many things that can't be explained.
Can you give an example of something that can't be explained and scientific types refuse to deal with? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Shlomo Alkabetz
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 15:06:33 [Permalink]
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Virgin Birth
Resuurection
Lazarus raising from the dead....
that stuff :)
Even science can't overcome the human ego....and thus of those in science that are of the large ego types can't bring themselves to say, "We don'y know, can't figure it out, etc..." so it becomes 'myth'.
We had a local kid here assaulted by punks with a baseball bat - pretty bad head injury. The kid belomnged to a church that does 'laying on of hands.' From the tuesday assault to the scheduled Friday operation the injuries had healed and the doctors thought it was a different person. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 15:34:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Shlomo Alkabetz
Virgin Birth
Resuurection
Lazarus raising from the dead....
that stuff :)
Even science can't overcome the human ego....and thus of those in science that are of the large ego types can't bring themselves to say, "We don'y know, can't figure it out, etc..." so it becomes 'myth'.
Hi, Shlomo. Though I can't speak for him, I don't think the above-mentioned examples were what Wreck was thinking about. Indeed, the supernatural falls outside the purview of science. So just as science has nothing to say about, say, the "Virgin Birth," nor does it have much to say about, for instance, my assertion that a Magical Pink Unicorn (praise be upon his horn) is living in my closet.
The only point where they can possibly intersect is when science says that no, there have been no demonstratable examples of people rising form the dead, nor of children being born from an unfertilized egg, nor of unicorns hiding in closets.
Conversely, science can address Biblical assertions such as its explanations for the diversity of life on earth, the validity of a world-wide flood, or the explanations for the diversity of spoken language. And unfortunately, the Bible doesn't hold up well in those cases.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 16:07:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Shlomo Alkabetz
Cuneiformist
Thanks for the welcome. I'd love to see a study, an honest one, on why people leave church or religion. Unfortunately, it was because of 'bad experiences' within the church, and that's admittedly pretty sad.
This being a skeptic board, I guess I can say this.....I have a problem with things like the Barna reports becuase I'm almost positive that a few times old Barna had the results he wanted and then started digging for and compiling statisitcs til he had the ones that would verify the already-decided upon results.
I'm not familiar with which studies you're concerned about, Shlomo. But given that part of Barna's vision is to "provide . . . resources that help facilitate spiritual transformation in America," you might be right that they're skewing things so that they favor in some way the religious/spiritual cause they want to further.
You're right that an "honest" study about why people leave religion would be interesting, as would an "honest" one about why people come to religion.
The problem, I suspect, is that people may not always understand why the came to/left their religion. Is a rejection of the Christian faith really because of logical/philosophical/ration objections, or because someone had a "bad experience"? Similarly, did a person become religious because whatever god "spoke" to her, or was it her best/easiest way to cope with her drug problem/health issues, etc.? Even if people want to be honest, they may have already come up with more acceptable answers, therefore clouding the actual result.
Still-- we can always hope for such a thing! |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 17:11:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Shlomo Alkabetz
Virgin Birth
Resuurection
Lazarus raising from the dead....
that stuff :)
Even science can't overcome the human ego....and thus of those in science that are of the large ego types can't bring themselves to say, "We don'y know, can't figure it out, etc..." so it becomes 'myth'.
We had a local kid here assaulted by punks with a baseball bat - pretty bad head injury. The kid belomnged to a church that does 'laying on of hands.' From the tuesday assault to the scheduled Friday operation the injuries had healed and the doctors thought it was a different person.
Given the two thousand or so years elapsed since the alleged virgin birth, resurrection, and the Lazarus case, and the fact that the "documentation" of these events wasn't even put into writing until sixty to ninety years after the fact, and that there is no surviving physical evidence, it is pretty much impossible to do much investigation of them. All we can say is that we have no reliable evidence of such a thing happening at that time, before or since. If you believe those things happened, I think you have to take that on faith.
Do you have any references (link to newspaper website or medical site) that would accurately describe the injuries, medical treatment received, and recovery of the unfortunate youth you mentioned? Sounds like an interesting case. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 17:20:42 [Permalink]
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Ahem, since someone resurrected this thread, here I go.
Born in an agnostic environment (single mother believes in God and Jesus but attends no church since she can't find one of her liking, prays on her own right and lives on her own peaceful moral standards), staying in it.
I've never felt some compelling presence of God, as mother seems to have, but I don't feel compelled to condemn Christianity or the Bible whatsoever. I've never read the Bible in its totality, but someday I will. To be honest, I just don't bother. Sometimes she pressures me to read it, to try it, but very randomly. She acknowledges I have to make my own choice, and she is cool with the fact that I just might choose differently (say, oh, buddhism or hinduism - not that I actually would pick anything at all - I even considered Wicca). I enjoy going to church with her as much as I enjoy listening to a philosophy lecture.
I don't know if I could classify myself as an atheist or an agnostic. People as, "is there a God?"; all I can answer is, "I don't know. I don't believe in one in particular, but who knows? There might just be and I'm not aware of him (or her)." |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 10:09:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
I don't know if I could classify myself as an atheist or an agnostic. People as, "is there a God?"; all I can answer is, "I don't know. I don't believe in one in particular, but who knows? There might just be and I'm not aware of him (or her)."
Though I can never keep my definitions straight, I think this qualifies you as either a strong or weak agnostic. I think.
And as an aside, you should read the Bible-- at least some parts of it. Genesis 1-11 is very interesting, if you can get through the "Antediluvial Patriarch lived X years and then begat SON, and died after Y years" stuff. But just keep some scrap paper handy and take notes. It's kind of fun.
Another interesting read is the Joseph story, which starts, I think, in Genesis 37 and goes to the end (with, if I recall correctly, an unrelated interlude in Gen 38 that can be skipped if you want).
In the NT, I find the Jesus stories to be interesting, but the various Paul letters to be rather boring. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 10:31:49 [Permalink]
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I've probably answered this in another thread, but here goes anyway...
Was raised to believe in God by parents who shared a deep disgust for and distrust of organized religion. Was not allowed to attend church as a kid. Experienced my first church service (Catholic, ugh) in college and wanted to flee the premises.
Became an atheist at age 14 when my grandfather died. In the last year or so, I realized that my atheism was misdirected adolescent anger...and it was keeping that part of me from growing up and letting go.
I described myself as agnostic for years, but I'm not sure that label fits any more, either. I guess I'm a seeker of personal truth and spiritual direction who cares less and less what others think/feel/believe. And I still carry a deep distrust for organized religion and its rules, symbolism, hypocrisy, and ritual. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 10:54:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
I don't know if I could classify myself as an atheist or an agnostic. People as, "is there a God?"; all I can answer is, "I don't know. I don't believe in one in particular, but who knows? There might just be and I'm not aware of him (or her)."
Though I can never keep my definitions straight, I think this qualifies you as either a strong or weak agnostic. I think.
And as an aside, you should read the Bible-- at least some parts of it. Genesis 1-11 is very interesting, if you can get through the "Antediluvial Patriarch lived X years and then begat SON, and died after Y years" stuff. But just keep some scrap paper handy and take notes. It's kind of fun.
Another interesting read is the Joseph story, which starts, I think, in Genesis 37 and goes to the end (with, if I recall correctly, an unrelated interlude in Gen 38 that can be skipped if you want).
In the NT, I find the Jesus stories to be interesting, but the various Paul letters to be rather boring.
I guess so. Oh well. I just don't think about it. 
But! I will read. I began reading the Genesis and mother's made me know the Joseph story - she says it sounds like her own - but never actually read it. NT, I've begun to read it when I was gifted a New Testment + Psalms bible (yeah... they were dishing it out in front of college, so I took one), started reading it to avoid paying attention in Searching, Sorting and Storing Techniques (free translation, bear with it) class. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 12:20:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I'll put my two cents in, but I thought I'd comment (somewhat off-topically (if that's a word)) how interesting it is to read through this now two and a half year old post and see all the people who were once regular posters but now never make appearances. Where did they go?! 
Good question! I miss Snake. Though Trish and Garrette (my mentor, so to speak) didn't post in this poll, I miss their posts, too.
That having been said, like so many others I didn't really have the right selection. My mother was a member of the Christian Church, but was baptised into my father's church (Baptist) when she married him. To my knowledge, she never attended either church again. My father, however, goes to church every time the doors are open. He took me regularly when I was a young child... until I discovered I would rather stay home and watch Penelope Pitstop (for those of you too young to remember she's a blend of Lara Croft and Daphne from Scooby Doo, very cool).
I wanted to join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a teenager because of some Mormon neighbors I had who had a great family life. My parents were convinced it was/is a cult and had something of an intervention for me. The only thing I ever did to defy my parents was attend church and Bible study in secret.
I went to a liberal arts college, and education opened my mind. I've been an agnostic for many years, and though I take my children to church upon request, they know I do not believe in God. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 16:08:34 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, what happened to Trish? I miss her. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 08:44:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
Good question! I miss Snake. Though Trish and Garrette (my mentor, so to speak) didn't post in this poll, I miss their posts, too.
Hey, Wendy-- here's a question: what brought you back? For some reason, I thought you were new here. But your mentioning Snake suggests that you've been here for awhile. And after checking, it seems you've been here for a long time. Obviously, though, you took some time off. So what was it that brought you back here? |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 09:14:02 [Permalink]
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I wish my reply could be something really interesting, i.e. I've been on assignment for National Geographic in a remote region... or I recently escaped from the mother-ship of the aliens who abducted me. The truth is dull, at least to the reader. I had a long-distance romance (yes, we met on the internet  ) with the man who became my husband in January. We have five children between us, so I'm as busy as a one-armed paper hanger most of the time.
I was very active in the Kerry/Edwards campaign. It's the first time I have ever campaigned for anyone, but I had very passionate feelings about this election. When Kerry lost I came here looking for comfort from those who are like-minded, or maybe I even hoped to find someone who could give me some rationale as to why it's not so bad. Anyway... it's nice to be back.
I know I've hijacked a bit here. My apologies everyone. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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| Edited by - Wendy on 11/15/2004 14:19:51 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 10:24:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
I wish my reply could be something really interesting, i.e. I've been on assignment for National Geographic in a remote region... or I recently escaped from the mother-ship of the aliens who abducted me. The truth is dull, at least to the reader. I had a long-distance romance (yes, we met on the internet ) with the man who became my husband in January. We have five children between us, so I'm as busy as a one-armed paperhanger most of the time.
What? No mothership from Alpha Centauri? Damn!
But, really, congrats on new husband and all My sister, too, met her husband on the Internet. When I finally let her use it  |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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