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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/18/2002 : 19:52:51 [Permalink]
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I dunno.
Few seem to have a lot of staying power.
I think it's because they feel that any logic refuting their beliefs is blasphemy that can't be listened to. A firm belief can seldom be overcome by a mere fact.
Ah well.
f
"Don't tell me your doubts; I've got enough doubts of my own. Tell me something you BELIEVE in!"
Brother Dave Gardner |
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Stygma
New Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 07:55:58 [Permalink]
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I'm just sorry I didn't have time to land a blow or two.
If you ever fall off the Sears Tower, just go limp, because people might think you're a dummy and try and catch you because, hey, free dummy. |
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JRB
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 10:28:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Seriously, is 'hit and run' a common creationist tactic?
yup - just like a seagull - swoop in, drop a few "presents" and fly away. 
"Dear God. We paid for all this stuff ourselves, so thanks for nothing."
~Bart Simpson saying grace |
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dinon74
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2002 : 23:24:55 [Permalink]
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Hey everyone!!
I know it's been a long long time. Work has been killing me 13 hour days have not been very uncommon. Good to see everyone is still around. I decided to post on this forum since the other one showed no activity since march 9th. So I've done a little bit of reading in the little time I've had. First though Xev I went to the one site you had listed about the 300 contradictions. I took the very first one and answered it. I'll be honest this late at night I didn't feel like doing the other 299 haha..
The first "contradiction" had to do with Jesus appearing to the 11 or the 12. The verse for 11 was Matthew 28:16 - "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him."
Along with Mark 16:4 -"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen."
There is your eleven. The supposed contradiction comes to question in 1st Corinthians 15:5 -"And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve."
The correct answer is 11. Because Judas hung himself see Matt 27:3-5. Also there is no contradiction with 1 Cor 15:5. If you read just two more verses you will see that. Here you go. Starting with verse 5. “ and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. (Not the apostles, watch) 6. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to present, but some have fallen asleep (died). After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles ( the 11)
When you stop and assume the 12 spoken of are the apostles that is wrong for just a few sentences down it clearly states otherwise. What is interesting too is that James (Jesus's brother) denied Christ as the Messiah while He was alive. Why then would he admit that He was the Messiah after He was dead? He saw Jesus as the text states. I don't expect anyone here to believe that part though. (No need for discussion on that right now) But the bottom line is that there is no contradiction. The same could be done with the others, often those who make those statments don't know the scriptures nor cross-reference to get the whole story they just pick isolated verses here and there to try and pick it apart. Very frustrating as it is for those who come on this site and distort science to promote their cause. Since the beginning with you guys I have stated that I am open to investigating the evidence. It will be great to hear from everyone again. If I'm not on that much it's just because of work. Which by the way if anyone lives near Pasadena stop by and say hi..
Talk to you later.. Dino
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 10:12:35 [Permalink]
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So who, exactly, were these "twelve?" Don't you think that a work,were it inspired by a deity, would be a little more coherent?
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 10:53:46 [Permalink]
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[b]So who, exactly, were these "twelve?" Don't you think that a work,were it inspired by a deity, would be a little more coherent?[/b]
The Bible uses the term "the Twelve" again and again to mean the Apostles and only the Apostles. It means the Apostles this time too but with an obvious flaw in the copy editing. Dino tries to twist it in a fit of self-duplicity, but only manages to point out that it is even more flawed than it first appeared.
But divine coherence is an excellent point.
If god is perfect then his communications must also be perfect. Perfect communication means that the designated audience would understand it completely. In this case the designated audience is all the people of planet Earth.
However we find that the bible is a book written in a time when only a few people could read. And in a places with no means of transmitting it to all the peoples of the world. And it was written in a language that only a very few of the few people who could read, understood.
Not only is this communication not perfect, it's stupid. If I had hired an ad agency to get my message out and they did it like this I'd fire them. It's like running a TV ad in NYC and having the actors speak Urdu and tranmitting it to homes without TVs- you aren't going to sell very much tooth paste that way.
Even when it eventually gets translated into the language people speak they disagree on what it means to the point that they kill one another. This isn't "perfect" communication by a long shot.
Because it isn't the responsibility of the person receiving the message to understand it, it is the responsibility of the person transmitting the message to make it understandable. God isn't supposed to be limited by physical restraints, there is nothing technical to keep god from being "perfectly" understood if he wanted to be.
So if the bible comes from god then god isn't perfect. If god isn't perfect he isn't god after all.
Then the bible in itself shows that there is no god.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 11:47:04 [Permalink]
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Slater your logic depends on persuming what it was god wanted to achieve. Since God is, as it is well know perfect and infallible, he can't make any mistakes (unless he wanted, to cause he can do anything he wants). So we have to conclude that, whatever it was he wanted to achive, he did achieve or is in the process of achieving.
You can't expect a deity who created a world with fossils and other red-herings to be that straght forward. You can't measure him by your standards either.
Gods ways may seem ineffective and slow to you, but you have to keep in mind that somebody who is omnipotent and timeless, can't by definition waste either time nor resources because they hold no meaning to him.
On the other hand God very obviously does not want to be understood by people being logical about things. If he had wanted people, who are being logical about things, to understand anything, he would have created the universe in a less misleading way. People who think logical come to different conclusions from people who are being told the truth.
It is best not be logical about things and just believe the truth.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 12:03:58 [Permalink]
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Ohhhh, I get it now. All is for the best in this best of all possible worlds.
Where is Dr Pangloss when you need him?
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 14:17:56 [Permalink]
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Tending his garden!
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 03:38:30 [Permalink]
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[quote]Not only is this communication not perfect, it's stupid. If I had hired an ad agency to get my message out and they did it like this I'd fire them. [/quote]
Uh, Slater, I think I'd have to disagree with you here. I think they've run a damned good ad campaign. Two thousand years of survival, almost as many years of predominate theocracy in Europe, and the making of untold fortunes, (that are even tax free these days)...Man, I'd really like a peice of that pie. This may not be able to sell toothpaste, but it sure sold itself.
But, that's just my opinion, and, unfortunately, I can't sell used cars either.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 08:16:08 [Permalink]
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[quote]...Man, I'd really like a peice of that pie.[/quote]
Ron L Hubbard did get one piece.
"God-as revealed in his book of edicts and narratives is practically an idiot. He has nothing to say that any sensible person should want to listen to."
-- Johann Most
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 13:18:08 [Permalink]
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[quote]...God very obviously does not want to be understood by people being logical about things...[/quote]
What a perfect illustration of the anti-intellectualism inherrent in theism (particularly xianity)! It just goes to show that man creates god in his own image; in his own image and likeness creates he him. Theists just need to work on their self-esteem, then they wouldn't feel so stupid when encountering an educated person.
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 14:16:10 [Permalink]
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Does any body know any quotes from the bible that say that intelligence, sophistication or education are positive things?
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2002 : 07:50:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Does any body know any quotes from the bible that say that intelligence, sophistication or education are positive things?
There certainly aren't any in 1st Corinthians! My goodness, that book is filled with talk of how God wants people to be fools, and disparages wisdom!
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/1cor/notes.html
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 14:43:49 [Permalink]
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The heart is mentioned hundreds of times in the bible (erroneously) as the seat of the emotions, while the brain is not mentioned even once. Obviously, the biblical authors, in a quite literal sense, did not know what the brain is for.
Present day proponents of the various permutations of xianity like to tell thinkers that they "think too much" and speak proudly of being "fools for jeeezuss."
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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