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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2002 : 06:09:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
He also wears a Mithran tiara (or would that be mitre?). Is he Mithran also?
What the hell is that? Is it a religion? If you tell me what it is then I can tell you if he is one.
 All these discussions about Mithra and the Mithran religion in this folder and you have to ask?!
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You can tell she's hydrolic...
Her silver scream is supersonic
You can see the mercury smear in her eye... |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2002 : 06:13:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Let me summarize:
Snake: "Why are we trying to distinguish between Christianity and Judaism? They are basically the same, since the former came from the latter."
Tokyodreamer: "That may be true, but that's not really the point of the discussion. Besides, Christianity came from a lot more than Judaism."
Is this a reasonably accurate asessment?
Sure (though I dispute any claim at all that they are "basically the same"). Snake said he had a problem with the wording of the question. I think his explanation of why he has a problem is not justified. /shrug
And since nitpicking and arguing minutiae and technicalities is only fun for so long, I think I'll stop now. 
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You can tell she's hydrolic...
Her silver scream is supersonic
You can see the mercury smear in her eye...
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 07/24/2002 06:15:17 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2002 : 00:12:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
All these discussions about Mithra and the Mithran religion in this folder and you have to ask?!
You expect me to have read ALL the posts in this entire folder? Are you crazy?!
I was only commenting on the 1st post, that's it. Case closed.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 14:45:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
You expect me to have read ALL the posts in this entire folder? Are you crazy?!
I was only commenting on the 1st post, that's it. Case closed.
You ignore 30 pages of debate? Are you crazy?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 15:59:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
You expect me to have read ALL the posts in this entire folder? Are you crazy?!
I was only commenting on the 1st post, that's it. Case closed.
You ignore 30 pages of debate? Are you crazy?
Actually yes. At least many people think so but that's not the point.
Here's the deal! Pay attention.
I answered the very 1st post in this folder (the original). Someone replied to my comment. So I replied back to their reply. None of that had anything to do with all the other posts in between. It was a seperate line of conversation, as far as I'm concerned.
Like so many people do in general, it seems, some here are getting hysterical without standing back and looking at the whole picture. Thank you.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2002 : 18:07:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Like so many people do in general, it seems, some here are getting hysterical without standing back and looking at the whole picture. Thank you.
But it's hysterical in a fun way.
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You can tell she's hydrolic...
Her silver scream is supersonic
You can see the mercury smear in her eye... |
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Tera
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 21:06:31 [Permalink]
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I'm new here but I did take the time to read the entire folder. Several pages back someone said something like, the Romans of the time did not really expect to see a God walking around. That got me thinking that in fact there were contemporary Roman Gods walking around, several in fact. One notable example is Julius Caesar. He was proclaimed a God shortly after his death and his statues proclaim him "God made manifest and common savior of mankind". It occurs to me that this God, did in fact have an only begotten son (ptolemy caesarion). As the story goes, Augustus's soldiers strangled caesarion as he was trying to escape to India after Cleopatra's death.
It does seem odd to me that Augustus would not have wanted Caesarion (above all others), to be present at his triumph, and would have spared him as was tradition until then. Even if he was in fact killed, it would seem that a Caesarion pretender, was bound to show up sooner or later and might me another link in the Jesus amalgam.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 12:00:50 [Permalink]
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Augustus was also a god, don't forget. He was the one who coined the term "Gospel" (good news) as the title for his public declaration of divinity.
But I'm missing any connection between Caesarion and the Jesus story. Could you be more specific?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 07:02:12 [Permalink]
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An email I just sent to a local radio host. Apparently they were discussing some kid who was assigned to write a letter to someone who influenced his life, and he wrote to Jesus, but the teacher told him that wasn't allowed, because Jesus wasn't real. The school claimed she meant that the letter had to be to someone who could write back:
quote:
Greetings, Peter!
My wife told me she heard you mention on today's (8.6.2002) show that "Jesus' existence is an historical fact and has been verified by several independent sources". Now I'm no scholar, but this subject holds great interest to me. My own readings have led me to the conclusion that Jesus most likely was never a real person. Do you happen to have a list of these "several indepentent sources"?
Only a couple of historians mentioned (what could have been) Jesus, and we know one, Flavius Josephus, in his "Annals", to be a forgery from the fourth century (written by Eusebius, the nice church father who thought it was perfectly fine to lie for the church's benefit), and the other mentions him in such a way as to indicate he was just referring to things he had heard on the street, and had no first-hand knowledge or verification.
This, coupled with the fact that there were about 40 other well known historians of the time that made absolutely no mention of someone who was supposedly walking around, inciting riots, and healing people and raising the dead, I think is sufficient support for my position.
I even wrote an English paper (I got an A!) on the subject, complete with references. Maybe you'll give it a fair reading, and tell me what you think?
http://home.mchsi.com/~cnjbrown/jesus.pdf
P.S. About the subject that you were discussing that brought this up, were kids allowed to write letters to anyone who was dead? If not, Jesus' historiocity is irrelevant. If the kids were allowed to write letters to Santa Claus or Hercules, then the kid should have been able to write to Jesus!
[oops, that should be "Antiquities", not "Annals"  ]
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/09/2002 08:33:32 |
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Tera
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2002 : 20:08:25 [Permalink]
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That's right Augustus was a God, but as an extension of Caesars Godhood, his legal heir and adopted son. But Caesar had a true son whom he claimed and acknowledged as his own while Cleopatra was living in Rome. After Caesars death, there was apparently a sign in the sky (meteor, comet??) that proclaimed his Godhood.
In terms of a true connection, I'm not sure there is one. In the first place, the dates are wrong and then of course, Caesarion was not Jewish. But its a fun idea to play with. On the one had you have Caesarion, who was proclaimed king of kings and in whose name the battle of actium was fought. He was the stepson of the new Dionysus (Anthony) the son of Isis (Cleopatra) and the only begotten son of the God Caesar (hero of the warrior class, God made manifest and all that). On the other you have Augustus who is only an adopted son. After the battle of Actium, Augustus goes to Egypt to follow up his victory, Anthony and Cleopatra commit suicide and he carts their children off to Rome. But where is Caesarion?? What if he really did escape? Certainly there would be doubt about his death since Augustus did not produce him in Rome.
Rome always seemed to me to have been more personally, involved in the Jesus story than they should have been. Herod was a puppet king and though he does not seem to have mass murdered all male babies born in a certain time frame, he does seem to have been on a witch hunt. Caesarion, if he did escape, would probably have recruited in the holy land just as his mother did when she was trying to regain her kingdom. Also, little things in the gospels make me wonder, like James and John jockeying for position when Jesus "comes into his kingdom". The crown of thorns is more than slightly reminesent of the crown of laurels. And when pilate (a Roman) asked Jesus if he is the son of God, Which of the pantheon of Gods did he mean...I'm betting he was asking if he was the son of one of the Gods who had lived and breathed and been capable of producing offspring.
But again, its just a fun idea to play with and has zero chance of ever being proven.
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 11:29:23 [Permalink]
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To any rational minds who happen to stumble on this site there are more than enough evidences for the NT Jesus actually being the person described therein: Good question......was Jesus Christ just a CopyCat Savior Myth?
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(Part A1) MAJOR Revision May/2001 // Part B (6/13/97)
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This is the continuation of the introductory article on the CopyCat Savior discussion, at (copycat.html)
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These alleged "identicalities" generally attempt to identify Jesus with deities within a couple of categories (which have some overlap).
First there are the "Dying and Rising Gods" (e.g. Adonis, Baal (and Hadad), Marduk, Osiris, Tammuz/Dumuzi, Melquart, Eshmun), popularized in James G. Frazer's The Golden Bough [WR:GB]
Secondly are the figures in the Mystery Religions (e.g. Mithra, Dionysos, Hellenistic period Isis/Osirus).
Third, there are the more "major players" (e.g. Buddha, Krishna)
Finally are the figures that are allegedly linked by broader motifs such as 'miracle worker', 'savior' or 'virgin born'--heroes and divine men-- without an explicit death/resurrection notion (e.g. Indra, Thor, Horus?)
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Let's look at these in turn...
The Dying and Rising Gods
If you can swallow all these paranoid conspiracy theories you should have no problem with the biblical Jesus.
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 13:32:29 [Permalink]
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One thing remains true, no mention of Jesus prior to the 4th century regardless of what Christians scraped their faith off of. This is something you cannot get away from no matter how many smoke bombs you lob.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 14:15:24 [Permalink]
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D'Alogos,
Surely you're not arguing that Jesus existed and was the risen son of God because he isn't identical to any one of the previous myths? Please tell us you have some actual evidence this time.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 19:43:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
But again, its just a fun idea to play with and has zero chance of ever being proven.
It's an interesting idea but there is a time line problem with it. Pilate reigned in the mid 30's CE. Caesarion (Little Caesar) was born on June 23, 47 BCE--so he would have been pushing 80.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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