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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
 Posted - 03/16/2002 : 04:52:18
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Poll Question:
"How do you rate Capitalism as an economic system for maximising the well-being of ALL the people of Earth?"
"Specialisation is for insects." Robert A. Heinlen
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| Results: |
| The best of all possible worlds |
 [10%] |
3 votes |
| doing fine, thankyouverymuch |
[31%] |
9 votes |
| My thumb is sideways |
[24%] |
7 votes |
| 4/10, could do better |
[7%] |
2 votes |
| My hamster could do a better job |
[28%] |
8 votes |
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Poll Status:
Locked »» |
Total Votes: 29 counted »» |
Last Vote:
12/14/2003 20:48:53 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 05:24:24 [Permalink]
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That depends havely on what you understand under capitalism and compared to what.
Also you have to be aware that almost nobody on earth cares what would be the best for everybody on earth. Capitalism really does not go well with altruism.
You also have to clearly define what would be 'best' for everybody. Is being fed and healthy more important then having a right to vote?
The way you phrased your question it is impossible to give much of an answer.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 05:57:07 [Permalink]
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Actually, my hamster couldn't do a better job. At one time he might have, but I fed him to the puff adder last week.
Capitalism is an ecomonic system rather than a political one. I see no reason why a socialistic, political system couldn't enjoy all of the current freedoms that we seem to be losing.
That's mere speculation, of course.
But how much was Ken Lay's severance pay? I don't remember, but it was lots of dollars while the Enron rank and file took a pretty severe beating. Something ain't right about that.
I am not politically astute enough to reccommend a cure, but at the moment, I think that the hamster, well digested as he is, just might know more than our current crop of leaders. When he re-appears, I'll ask him.
f
"Don't tell me your doubts; I've got enough doubts of my own. Tell me something you BELIEVE in!"
Brother Dave Gardner |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 08:50:26 [Permalink]
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I voted "doing fine".
I see capitalism as the economic extension of the innate human hierarchical social structure. I think it's pretty much inevitable.
It seems to me that I remember every fuckin thing I know. (Tragically Hip) |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 11:31:45 [Permalink]
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"Inevitable"... odd, that's just what Marx thought about socialism... 
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 15:39:01 [Permalink]
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His idea is a good one, however it doesn't account for the selfish human ego. Capitalism thrives on that ego.
So until we look at the entire world as our family, functional Socialism remains just a nice idea.
It seems to me that I remember every fuckin thing I know. (Tragically Hip) |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 16:09:09 [Permalink]
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Capitalism exists where? What is the definition? As it exists now in the U.S.? It is a mix of a lot of things. None of which could even loosely be termed a "free market."
It has failed miserably in maximizing the well-being of all.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 16:19:55 [Permalink]
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Gorgo is right. Capitalism has been, at times, such a dismal failure that elements of socialism have been applied to almost all "capitalist" nations. It is worth noting that the places with the best standard of living are more socialist than the US.
If we dust off our history books and look back at capitalism before it was reformed we can see just how bad life was for all but the most wealthy. The record speaks for itself.
A system that doesn't just allow, but encourages selfishness seems doomed to failure.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 16:53:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
A system that doesn't just allow, but encourages selfishness seems doomed to failure.
That depends on what you consider to be sucess or failure of a system.
Have you read the works of Ayn Rand? I am not saying that I buy everything she says, but she definitley makes a good argument for selfishness.
Another thing is that it would be more honest this way. Human nature is heavily geared towards selfishness. Behind every altruistic act you can find a selfish motive if you only look hard enough.
You could interpret every cooperation as an act of rational selfishness. People are not for socialism because it is better for everyone else, but because they think that it would be better for them.
Can you think of a sytem that is not based on selfishness that would work?
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 17:09:50 [Permalink]
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I think Ayn Rand is well...let me try to put it nicely...a freak.
I think you have a different idea of how socialism works than I do. I think that it is a system where people, hopefully, voluntarily give the state the power to force everyone to act less selfish.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 17:48:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Capitalism is an ecomonic system rather than a political one.
But how much was Ken Lay's severance pay? I don't remember, but it was lots of dollars while the Enron rank and file took a pretty severe beating. Something ain't right about that.
what the Enron executives did has nothing to do with the fundamentals of Capitalism.
You are mixing up our 1st statement with the bottom one.
I also don't know all that much about politics, finances, etc., but I think according to capitalism the company should have the right to make as much money as it wants OR the public is willing to pay. Where as the reason the workers of Enron didn't get their share was because of politics and government interferance. Some sort of rule or law that they were locked out. Or was that just a company rule? In any case it's not really capitalisms fault, IMO. The workers should have been more careful of what they were doing.
*
Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 17:54:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think Ayn Rand is well...let me try to put it nicely...a freak.
You put that very nicely @. 
I've always thought and been taught she was a phoney too. Many of my Libertarian buddies wouldn't agree but I don't think they understand the truth about her. It seems as though she's being idolized, I think people should re-exam what she's saying.
*
Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 18:45:35 [Permalink]
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I don't know much about the Enron problem. However, when someone talks about government interference I generally feel the need to point out that there are no corporations without government. A corporation is a government creation.
Corporations began as a way to perform a public service. If you built a bridge, you were given a corporate charter until the bridge was built.
Let's not forget that corporations are government "interference."
quote:
Where as the reason the workers of Enron didn't get their share was because of politics and government interferance. Some sort of rule or law that they were locked out. Or was that just a company rule? In any case it's not really capitalisms fault, IMO. The workers should have been more careful of what they were doing.
*
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 03/16/2002 18:50:25 |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2002 : 18:47:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think Ayn Rand is well...let me try to put it nicely...a freak.
In fact, she was something of a cult leader as well. Skeptical Inquirer had something on this a while back. She had an organization which forced its members to agree to abide by rules that included one that Ayn Rand or her ideas could not be challenged or criticized. Shades of the ICR!
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2002 : 05:31:57 [Permalink]
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I put the poll up I guess to get a thumb-nail sketch of some of the political positions on the forum, as I'm a newbie here.
I must confess I haven't heard of Ayn Rand. Is she an American author?
I voted for my hamster, but I would as he's a real cutie (long-haired, you see). 
"Specialisation is for insects." Robert A. Heinlen |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2002 : 08:09:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think Ayn Rand is well...let me try to put it nicely...a freak.
Yes, there is some truth in this. I just brought her as an example for an extreme view on the subject. The point was one can make a argument for selfishness.
quote:
I think you have a different idea of how socialism works than I do. I think that it is a system where people, hopefully, voluntarily give the state the power to force everyone to act less selfish.
Yes, but why do they do that? Because they think that they themselves would profit from everybody acting less selfish. Spreading the risks and so on.
To NottyImp:
Ayn Rand was born in russia and had some bad experiences with socialism there before she moved to the US. She is the founder of the Philosophy of Objectivism.
She is most famous for her books Atlas Shrugged and the Fountain Head.
Her ideas included that being selfish is a virtue. That nobody should be forced to share.
She rejects altruism, determinism, mysticism and religion and gouvernment intervention into the economy.
Her ideas of an ideal society are a bit unrealistic and have formed odd results, but I still think that they include concepts, that are worth at least thinking about.
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