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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 03/17/2002 : 09:32:45 [Permalink]
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Do your odd results include Alan Greenspan? 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2002 : 09:52:42 [Permalink]
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Ah, Gorgo, you made an excellent point in that capitalism as it exists now is a mixture of things. And it's succeeding in making a better life for all through this evolution.
Sure, a hundred or two hundred years ago it was horrible. And that gave rise to unions and public interest, and more involvement of government. And here we are.
It seems to me that Capitalism has been more productive and more successful than Socialism.
It seems to me that I remember every fuckin thing I know. (Tragically Hip) |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2002 : 09:59:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
[quote]
I think Ayn Rand is well...let me try to put it nicely...a freak.
From what little Ayn Rand I read (I thought it was excruciatingly dull) a major theme seems to be "Whatever deals you enter into, get your end up front and in full." The problem is, if everybody insisted on that, nothing would get done.
As was mentioned, we only have to look some decades back to what motivated the formation of labor unions to have a small glimpse of the problems with "pure capitalism" in practice as opposed to theory. As it applies today, I have nothing against the concept of large corporations and conglomerates, yet they don't appear to have the population's best interests in mind, so I don't think they should be made captains of the ship (with a nod and wink, as it so happens.) Special interest groups, large corporations, lobbyists drive the politicians who steer the boat, while personal savings are at an all time low, personal debt is at an all time high, job security is nonexistent, and wage scales lopside. Reagan's "trickle down" incentives? They pocketed them. Wages too high here? They farm the work over to Mexico, Korea, India, what have you. Miracles of modern medicine? What good are they if fewer and fewer are adequately insured, and can afford decent medical care? Enron's nothing out of the ordinary, except perhaps in magnitude. Sure, freedom's nice to have, but so is a decent economic future for our kids. We seem to be a capitalist nation with socialist subsectors, anyway. Those in our military live in a what could be viewed as a socialist state within our own, in a way.
Ron White |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2002 : 10:28:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do your odd results include Alan Greenspan?
Actually he is one of the least odd ones.
I was thinking of those who must have somehow misunderstood the whole idea behind objectivism and turned it into a religion.
But I don't think that they have anything more in common with the origianl ideas of objectivism, then communism has with the basically good ideas of Karl Marx.
BTW.
Those who are interested to find out more about her works can go to project Gutenberg her dystpic short-story Anthem can be downloaded there in txt format for free.
I wonder, what she would have thought about the whole idea of information-sharing and the Internet?
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 08:00:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
But how much was Ken Lay's severance pay? I don't remember, but it was lots of dollars while the Enron rank and file took a pretty severe beating. Something ain't right about that. [filthy]
Capitalism should be morally / ethically neutral. If you are having trouble with Ken Lay's severance pay, then you go after the board of directors that authorized it. In the business world, lawsuits, public embarrasment and humiliation go in the Debit Column. It does not add to the bottom line.
(:raig |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 08:37:03 [Permalink]
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Again, define capitalism. The brand of "capitalism" that we have in the USA is certainly not "morally/ethically neutral." It favors the wealthy.
quote:
Capitalism should be morally / ethically neutral.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 10:10:42 [Permalink]
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Capitalism definition straight out of the dictionary:
"An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market."
U.S. capitalism doesn't necessarily favor the wealthy; it favors the aggressive, the estute and the opportunistic. The fact that we have a representative form of government that allows unfettered lobbying on behalf of special interests is not the fault of the capitalistic system. While bills are pending in Congress to protect the U.S. steel industry, 22,000 KMart empoyees were let go without so much as a "make sure the door doesn't hit you in the ass on the way out".
The U.S. system allows the accumulation of wealth much faster than many other countries. You can also LOSE money faster than many other places and systems. Warren Buffett is a Wall Street investment tycoon. He was once asked by Morley Safer of CBS 60 minutes what was the most money he LOST in one day. The answer: 870 million dollars.
Capitalism should allow one to make and lose as much money as one dares. Bill Gates did not start as the world's richest man. What he does with his profits is his business. The fact that he has one of the largest charitable foundations in the world is his business also. The capitalistic system allows one to do that.
(:raig |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 10:41:26 [Permalink]
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Well, then capitalism in the U.S. is a contradiction in terms. There is no such thing as a "free market." The presence of things like corporations are government creations and are not "free."
Capitalism in the U.S. favors the wealthy because they can afford to keep lobbyists in Washington all the time. Other "special interests" groups can't do that. The influential think tanks and the corporate media are not owned and run by poor people.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 11:58:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Capitalism in the U.S. favors the wealthy because they can afford to keep lobbyists in Washington all the time. Other "special interests" groups can't do that. [Gorgo]
If you're a small fish in a sea of predators, then you join a "school" for mutual protection. Take a look at
http://www.opensecrets.org/lobbyists/indusclient.asp?code=N00&year=1999
It is a registered lobbyist database. This particular URL focuses on business lobbies. You'll notice that there are a lot of Ma & Pa enterprises. I'm simply trying to say that if you're going to play in the business sector, then you play by the rules. If you don't like the rules then you get enough singular or collective clout to change them.
As to your other remark...
quote:
Well, then capitalism in the U.S. is a contradiction in terms. There is no such thing as a "free market." The presence of things like corporations are government creations and are not "free."
Total, absolute, unfettered "free"dom in any enterprise is anarchy. The system is only as good as imperfect humans will allow. So, if there are imperfections, make some noise. As if you didn't know how! HA!
(:raig |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 12:39:56 [Permalink]
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I'm not saying that poor people are flogged for being poor. I'm saying that the system makes sure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Just because the AFL-CIO has a lobby doesn't mean that rank and file workers run the country.
Money is where things lean. That isn't always "evil" (to put it in a language that Bush supporters can understand), but it is the way things are.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 12:44:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
U.S. capitalism doesn't necessarily favor the wealthy; it favors the aggressive, the estute and the opportunistic.
Oh good, that sounds great. Tough luck for the peaceful, less-than-astute and inopportunistic though, isn't it. I guess I'll just have to stay poor, then.
"Specialisation is for insects." Robert A. Heinlen
Edited by - NottyImp on 03/18/2002 12:45:08 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 13:07:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not saying that poor people are flogged for being poor. I'm saying that the system makes sure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
As time passes, it gets harder to distinguish the harshness of being physically flogged from being economically flogged; it's just a slower process. Since powerful people need constant monitoring to keep them from financially raping the less advantaged (I think that's pretty clear,) at best, it could be said that a Policed Capitalism might work pretty well. I guess we try to do that, but getting the big-money interests to make concessions for the sake of all is like pulling teeth from a tiger. I suspect Aristotle was right- man's inherently evil, and the evil has to be controlled.
Ron White |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 13:25:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oh good, that sounds great. Tough luck for the peaceful, less-than-astute and inopportunistic though, isn't it. I guess I'll just have to stay poor, then.
Well, we could always go back to the Soviet economic model...
"We pretended to work and they pretended to pay us."
Say...wait a minute. That's what's happening at my job now. 
(:raig |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 13:29:06 [Permalink]
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True. Poor (or black or hispanic) means you're more likely to go to prison, but it's not automatic yet. Wait until Rummy is done.
quote:
As time passes, it gets harder to distinguish the harshness of being physically flogged from being economically flogged;
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 13:34:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wait until Rummy is done.
[quote]
Actually I'm a Bud man, but wuddever. Take the helm, Sulu.
Ron White |
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