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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 03/18/2002 : 13:52:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't know much about the Enron problem. However, when someone talks about government interference I generally feel the need to point out that there are no corporations without government. A corporation is a government creation.
I never said anything about a corporation. That's a whole 'nother area. All I'm saying is Capitalism, is- I have or make something, you want it, I charge a price you are either willing or not willing to pay. Why can't it be that simple? Same goes for workers, I want to hire someone at a certain price, you want to do the job or not for that pay.
Perhaps at one time unions did help but they are obsolete now, execpt for their political interference! Whoops, I mean influence! 
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Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 13:58:19 [Permalink]
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We were talking about the Enron Corporation, as I recall. I wasn't disagreeing with you, or pointing out anything to you in particular. Just mentioning something.
As far as charging what you want, etc. Are you going to do that without government? How?
quote:
I never said anything about a corporation. That's a whole 'nother area. All I'm saying is Capitalism, is- I have or make something, you want it, I charge a price you are either willing or not willing to pay. Why can't it be that simple? Same goes for workers, I want to hire someone at a certain price, you want to do the job or not for that pay.
Perhaps at one time unions did help but they are obsolete now, execpt for their political interference! Whoops, I mean influence!
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Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 14:19:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, we could always go back to the Soviet economic model...
There's a sizeable constituency in Russia that might quite like that, actually. But who said the only choices are unfettered US capitalism or Soviet-style State-capitalism?
Economic systems are run and supported by *people*. The people that run US capitalism do it for their own benefit and don't give a damn about the poor in their own country, let alone any other. We need to be aware that one of the choices available to us is not to allow that to happen.
"Specialisation is for insects." Robert A. Heinlen
Edited by - NottyImp on 03/18/2002 14:21:16 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 20:13:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
The people that run US capitalism do it for their own benefit and don't give a damn about the poor in their own country, let alone any other.
I have a feeling that this point of view is a product of watching too much television.
Everyone wants to maximize their own benefit. But this sweeping accusation that "rich" people don't care about anyone and are selfish uncaring bastards is silly. Private U.S. charitable contributions, both foreign and domestic, are huge.
The system is geared toward the rich getting richer, but the average person, no matter their wealth, has no problem with the poor getting richer also.
People are not so shitty as some of you cynics like to believe.
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 03/18/2002 20:14:21 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 20:38:15 [Permalink]
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Well, I know a bunch of rich people in my area and people on welfare are usually referred to as lazy or leeches etc. I hear this all the time and they hate to be bothered with facts such as most people on welfare are corporations or elderly white people. When you live in rich areas and the TV news prefaces stories about welfare with shots of inner city projects where ethnic type people just hanging out it's not hard to see how rich people don't care about the poor. I'm sorry, but I totally agree that they don't.
TD, have you lived in Alabama your entire life? I know that's not exactly the richest part of the US so I wonder how many rich people live there. I know, I know....there are rich people everywhere but the city i live in is quite affluent and I hear this stuff all the time.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 21:09:19 [Permalink]
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TD, have you lived in Alabama your entire life? I know that's not exactly the richest part of the US so I wonder how many rich people live there. I know, I know....there are rich people everywhere but the city i live in is quite affluent and I hear this stuff all the time.
No, I have only lived here for the last 13 years. But I would never presume that my personal experiences would justify such a sweeping generalization as I see people making about so-called "rich" people (hint, hint  ).
quote:
it's not hard to see how rich people don't care about the poor
Charitable contributions and stories of U.S. Philanthropists tell a different story.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 21:21:35 [Permalink]
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How about significant numbers of the rich? Sure there are exceptions but I do hear talk like that an awful lot and I don't think it's unfair to mention it.
quote:
Charitable contributions and stories of U.S. Philanthropists tell a different story.
Can you say tax break?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2002 : 22:56:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Can you say tax break?
The tax system is a thinly-veiled subterfuge of volumes upon volumes that's skewed in favor of the wealthy and the corporations. Forbes was right- it needs to be dismantled. A flat tax or a national sales tax would make far more sense, if fairness is the objective.
Gorgo, now that I have a few minutes, regarding my previous posting:
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Wait until Rummy is done.
quote:
As time passes, it gets harder to distinguish the harshness of being physically flogged from being economically flogged;
The statement wasn't to be taken completely literally; "poverty kills" was the point. The impoverished have a shorter life span than those with higher incomes for a variety of reasons, and although an absolute causative relationship is hard to establish [sociometrics are unavoidably uncertain] common sense seems to suggest there's a link- inadequate or nonexistent healthcare, more stress, etc. make life harder. One of the pseudosolutions mentioned for the Social Security crisis on the horizon included raising the eligibility age, for exactly that reason- they don't live as long, and won't be around to swell the enrollment- I could think of few bigger examples of compromising ethics (and promises) to deal with financial mismanagement. It takes longer than a physical beating, but poverty takes a toll over time. I'll try to avoid writing figuratively if it results in a lack of clarity; on my lunch hour, I don't have the time or inclination to go over entries with a fine-toothed comb (and I generally don't anyway within this context: it's a forum to throw out ideas and opinions, not a research paper or a mission-critical report.) But I suspect by nature of your prior comments you're aware of all of this, so enough said.
Ron White |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 00:52:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have a feeling that this point of view is a product of watching too much television.
Everyone wants to maximize their own benefit. But this sweeping accusation that "rich" people don't care about anyone and are selfish uncaring bastards is silly. Private U.S. charitable contributions, both foreign and domestic, are huge.
Actually, I hardly watch any television and most of that which I do watch is news, current affairs and documentaries. I prefer radio news as I find it less sensationalist and that it gives a better in-depth coverage.
But anyway. Fact:
90% of the world's wealth is owned by 10% of the world's population. Your philanthropic rich don't seem to be doing too well, do they?
Incidentially, why should I have to live in a world where "charity" is even necessary?
"Specialisation is for insects." Robert A. Heinlen |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 05:11:20 [Permalink]
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I have to agree. I think most wealthy people care a great deal.
In fact, I'm not wealthy and I care a great deal but yet I still send my taxes in to a system that makes sure that some people live in grinding poverty in this country and others.
I care, but I send my taxes in to a system that makes sure that people in Central America are tortured. I send my taxes in to a system that makes sure that a large percentage of black people are put in prison.
quote:
The system is geared toward the rich getting richer, but the average person, no matter their wealth, has no problem with the poor getting richer also.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 05:14:57 [Permalink]
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I understood perfectly what you said Ron, and I agree perfectly with it. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.
quote:
Gorgo, now that I have a few minutes, regarding my previous posting:
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 05:17:51 [Permalink]
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Don't have any figures handy but most poor people are working people and a good percentage of homeless people are working people.
quote:
Well, I know a bunch of rich people in my area and people on welfare are usually referred to as lazy or leeches etc.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 07:29:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Can you say tax break?
Heh, I knew this would be your response.
What would you see as proof that they cared?
Tell me why I'm wrong to see shades of bigotry in this attitude?
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 07:34:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Fact:
90% of the world's wealth is owned by 10% of the world's population. Your philanthropic rich don't seem to be doing too well, do they?
First, source please. Second, define wealth. Third, how much of the world population lives under a (more or less) capatilistic system (read: China), and in this light, how is this at all relevant to a criticism of Capitalism?
quote:
Incidentially, why should I have to live in a world where "charity" is even necessary?
Well, it seems to me that the only alternative is oppression. Is that supposed to be better?
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 07:56:24 [Permalink]
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I'm sure that slave owners were very charitable to their slaves. I'm sure they cared about their well-being.
quote:
quote:
Incidentially, why should I have to live in a world where "charity" is even necessary?
Well, it seems to me that the only alternative is oppression. Is that supposed to be better?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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