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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 03/19/2002 : 11:16:15
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Denver Public Schools don't allow any religious group to use any school facility for any reason. Student led prayers are not an issue.
Now, they go and get stupid. They are trying to reinstitute saying the pledge of allegiance in the class rooms. My mother thought it was a good idea, until I pointed out that if they left 'under god' out I might agree. Supporters opinions, kids can just leave the class room if they don't like the pledge. Pointed out the potential of kids being singled out for being different because they leave class and the divisiveness of religious beliefs in the situation. Think she agreed with me on that - for once.
They are also trying to push patriotic teaching to the students. This frightens me, because I don't know exactly what falls under 'Patriotic' class material. Now, if they want to cover the Federalist papers or indepth American History - cool, but who's patriotism are we discussing here?
Terribly frustrated with the idiocy that seems to have invaded CO. (Oh the teachers did shoot down the original concept of teaching patriotism.)
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 12:30:56 [Permalink]
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Some info for you:
Patriotism Bill
Rocky Article:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/legislature/article/0,1299,DRMN_37_978215,00.html
Links to other Rocky Articles:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/search/1,1338,DRMN_1,00.html
The Pledge:
Bit of History on the Pledge (yeah, we all know this):
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/living_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_91_976291,00.html
Rocky Article on the Bill:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/legislature/article/0,1299,DRMN_37_1019987,00.html
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 13:03:50 [Permalink]
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Re the Pledge. Suppose a kid says the pledge, buy omits the "under god" part. What if any, action would be taken against the child? Can the lege see the can of worms it's opening here?
And as far as teaching patriotism, what ever happened to good old civics classes. Teaching kids to say "rah rah rah" isn't the same as teaching kids [i]why[/i] they're cheering.
The patriotism requirement is scary. This country right or wrong, question nothing, change nothing, revere authority...Without having a clue as to how the country is actually run.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 13:53:25 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Without having a clue as to how the country is actually run.
[/quote]
Or who (what?), exactly, the God they're speaking of is. Parents have (if they choose to use it) tremendous influence over what their children's impressions will be along both of these lines, at least until they're mature and experienced enough to make their own choices. That includes what goes on in the home, as well as what organizations/social groups- religious or otherwise- their families participate in, for better or worse. Aside from this, I think it's a legitimate concern to question any extra "programming" and social conditioning our kids are given (at no additional charge!) by our school districts, who we mainly fund to teach them the "3 R's" (at least I hope so.) That applies particularly in the interest of the kids who's parents don't take an active interest at home, either.
Ron White |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 13:58:53 [Permalink]
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Two articles I especially liked:
[quote]True patriotism needs critical thinking skills
With his Pledge of Allegiance and patriotism instruction bills, Sen. John Andrews, and now News columnist Mike Rosen, through his endorsement, seem eager to inject a cynical, false issue into this year's election cycle.
They hope to paint Democrats who object to these bills on constitutional grounds as unpatriotic. The truth is Colorado Democrats are second-to-none in love of flag, country and Constitution, though we have a big problem with depriving people of personal conscience through indoctrination.
If Andrews and Rosen are serious, they must understand every repressive, totalitarian monster of the last 100 years, including Osama bin Laden, would wholeheartedly endorse their approach. It's simple: make kids recite pledges and learn political catechisms by rote, and they will be good, compliant sheep. It's the best way yet to kill a nation's conscience.
To create a nation of genuine patriots requires teaching three things: the nation's history and civics, from various perspectives, and, above all, critical thinking skills.
Critical thinking allows one to take information and arguments, much of it parading as facts and truth, like Andrews' and Rosen's rhetoric, and decide whether it is nonsense. With that education, students will no longer be patriotically challenged, as Andrews' alleges, or become sleepwalking sheep.
Instead, they will logically see that, at its core, the United States firmly champions the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that this as a good thing for a nation to do. Students will, thus, become informed patriots who logically embrace civic responsibility and love of country in their hearts, minds and souls.
What more could a patriot want?
Robert Sampron
Secretary, Jefferson County Democratic Party
Littleton[/quote]
Is this guy running for office - this is my voting county - I'll vote for him.
and:
[quote]Johnson: What will be left out of 'patriotism' class?
I'm still trying to figure out what John Andrews would, exactly, want to teach my children.
A good starting point, I think, is Webster's. You've gotta define terms. Yes, here it is. Patriotism: n. Love and loyal or zealous support of one's country. Seems simple enough. Yet can they put it in a textbook and transfer it into my kids' heads?
Would state Sen. Andrews' proposed legislation make them teach Ben, my son, of Gadsby's Tavern? It's the historic spot in Alexandria, Va., where George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and others among the Founders plotted independence.
My son loves the place. We had dinner there last Friday, and perhaps sat in the same space where Washington had. An oil painting hung above our table, depicting the future first president and others doing their scheming. Ben, nearly 13 now, loved it. "Fighting the power," he said.
He and Kate, almost 8, love their new city, how it is richly steeped in Americana. We spent our time together last week touring the historic places, which seem to give them such awe.
"That's where George Washington went to church, Dad," Kate said, a dozen times.
Would "patriotism" class teach my kids any of the things we saw at the National Museum of American History? Would it say anything of the historic Greensboro, N.C., Woolworth lunch counter now on display there?
My kids were impressed with the menu sign showing banana splits selling for only 29 cents. I told them they could have never sat there and purchased one -- not even for even $29. You should have seen my son's face when I told him why.
And whose statue was towering over the display? Yes, the man with the wooden teeth, in whose spot at Gadsby's even in the 1960s we could have never sat.
Will they teach them this in "patriotism" class?
Will they explain, too, the exhibit where we spent so much time? It was of the migration of blacks in the South seeking the American dream of self-sustaining work and a life in cities of the North.
One memory of this I will take to my grave. Off in a corner is a mannequin outfitted in a Ku Klux Klan hood and robe. My daughter sees only a dress.
"Why is that man wearing a dress, Daddy?" she asks. I tell her of their terrorism and murder of blacks and other ethnic and religious minorities. All she asks is "Why?"
Will "patriotism" class teach her any of this?
Similar questions arise amid the photographs and artifacts displayed on Japanese-American internment during WWII.
My son was greatly impressed by a display on the heroics of PFC Sadao Munemori, who left his incarcerated family and enlisted out of one of the camps. In Italy in 1945, he single-handedly knocked out two machine-gun nests, saving the lives of countless men. Upon his retreat to his men, a grenade is tossed into a hole occupied by two men. He falls on it. He is posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.
Maybe this, too, could be in the class work.
We saw so much together over the past week, from Old Glory to presidential china and first lady gowns. We saw, too, white drinking fountains and "colored" fountains.
I never did ask my kids, at the end, if they loved their country. Come to think of it, I'd be sort of interested in what they might have to say.
Then again, I already know the answer.[/quote]
Would this kind of stuff be taught?
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 14:48:02 [Permalink]
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That first article sums it up for me Trish. Do these brain surgeons even begin to grasp the irony of [b]mandating an oath of allegiance to a government[/b]?
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2002 : 14:57:08 [Permalink]
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That is stated rather well isn't it? Yeah, about sums it for me too along with the first line from the second article. Just what do these guys want to teach my kid? Definitely think the irony of the situation escapes them.
Critical thinking is just plain missing from this bill.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2002 : 05:12:14 [Permalink]
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[quote]
That is stated rather well isn't it?
[/quote]
Yes, very well.
Although political maneuvers appear to define the agendas of Andrews and Rosen, I think they both believe themselves to be acting in the best interests of both youth, and the country in general… although I wouldn't argue for a heartbeat with the fact that the history of governments and religions exploiting youth in calculated ways has been established again and again- and too many times accompanied by tragedy when ruthless and/or deluded zealots have been involved. To put things in perspective, we're admittedly discussing seemingly very minor (and some would say petty) matters in pledges and prayers, but "I'd still prefer to monitor the installation of any such software into my kid's head myself, Thank You."
The most prominent traits I see in youth are enthusiasm, boundless energy, inquisitiveness, and a desire to assert themselves… yet most lack the knowledge and experience base necessary to direct these strengths in ways conducive towards their long-term benefit as adults (and for the good of society, as well.) It seems the timing of their biology isn't well-synchronized with the complexities of our social environment they're thrown into, and we can't change their biology, but we can do our best to guide them through the maze of nonsense and contradictions they're faced with so they'll (at least have a chance to) become happy, autonomous adults- as opposed to confused pawns who are easily manipulated to do the bidding of unscrupulous "leaders," whether political or religious.
Ron White |
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