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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2001 : 07:02:34 [Permalink]
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Somehow you're laboring under the mistaken assumption that I'm trying to convince you of anything.
You're not? Interesting.
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There is no amount of compliance which will stop the murder of the Iraqi people. That has been shown time and again.
No. What has been shown time and time again is that No Compliance will not stop the sanctions. Use it all you want, but I will not accept the term 'murder' as interchangeable with the sanctions or other US/UN/UK activities. I will accept it for a lot of Hussein's activities, though.
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You're also under the mistaken assumption that I think the sanctions aren't working. They are working exactly as planned. Two million dead, and a whole generation crippled. That's quite a score.
Quite a score indeed, and quite a jump from the previous 500,000 claim. I'd say Hussein has a lot to answer for.
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This is like the idea that the U.S. lost the Vietnam war. Sure, they would have rather had their brand of dictatorship work, but the next best thing was to destroy any hope of any kind of popular government and any kind of prosperous country
Well, it was in the hopes that a popular government would be the result that we went in. Actually, though, that was a secondary concern, since the primary concern was part of the whole 'Containment' idea as part of the Truman Doctrine. But if you're saying we muffed it, I'll agree. Another example of the US's ability to take a good idea and ruin it with bad diplomacy. The Communists were not very popular in Vietnam and the VC had little support and success until we provided them a cause to rally the people around. And the idea that they have no chance of becoming prosperous is silly on the face of it. They're becoming quite entrepeneurial with the promise of great success. Which leads me to the one thought that I wish more leaders would keep in mind: Economics cause lots of wars, but economics can prevent them, too, and the best way to make an ally is through economic networking. (Poorly said, I know, but it's spur of the moment). And Vietnam the war is/was not nearly so simple as you or I have implied. Sort of an inherited problem from the French all mixed up with the remnants of colonialism and growing panic at the perceived "Red Menace."
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In other words, there is international law. Unenforceable, really, except where the U.S. decides that it is. There are international ethics, immaterial, except where the U.S. decides that it is. The U.S. is above the law and above ethics. It is brutal, it is criminal, and it is genocidal.
The US is 'subject' to the same things all other countries are 'subject' to. Hussein has deigned not to follow "International Law", yet you fail to hold him to task. Unenforceable? All international mandates have been only as enforceable as the force behind them. You want me to apologize because the US is the big dog on the block? Won't do it. Nor do I expect it to last forever. What I expect history to remember is that the US, while it was the big dog, wielded its power less capriciously than most in its position (not without caprice, not without mistakes, and certainly not without self-interest; just less cruelly than most). And the US does subject itself to the UN even at times when it seems not in its interests to do so or seems ludicrous. Did you notice that the US is now no longer on the Human Rights Commission? Ridiculous when you list which nations ARE on it; if the HRC had as its only members the representatives of, say, Luxembourg and Nepal, then I wouldn't complain about us being kicked off.
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If murder is "concern," then you are right. The U.S. has shown "concern" for its "little brown brothers" to the south of it, it has shown "concern" for millions of Southeast Asians, and it now shows "concern" for hundreds of thousands of what I'm sure some of you used to call "Sand Niggers."
I've already said that I won't accept 'murder' as the term here. I've mentioned what I think of US relations with Central and South America, though we do not exterminate them in a manner similar to, oh let's just pick something at random and compare it to oh what the heck Hussein and the Kurds. And yes, we showed concern for millions of Southeast Asians; more concern in fact, than did the VC who showed little concern for combatants or non-combatants of North or South Vietnam. Regarding "Sand Niggers", Trish and Slater have responded in general, though I heard very little pervasive comments about the Iraqi soldiers. And if you are, as it seems, casting general accusations of racism, then you're not only mistaken, but stooping lower than is called for. I won't respond to this type of aspersion again.
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"Backing down" from what? Garrette has said that the U.S. has won. The U.S. has killed and crippled millions. The U.S. has seen that Iraq couldn't attack anyone, much less defend themselves for decades. The U.S. has seen to it that the Arab world hates and mistrusts us. What other worthwhile goals are there to be gained?
Hussein created the hate and mistrust when it invaded Kuwait; we could not add to that. Or are the Middle Eastern people so sheepish that they follow the US, even so far as ways to think? I don't think so, but perhaps you do.
Yes, the US AND THE UN AND THE REST OF THE MIDDLE EAST WON! That doesn't mean Hussein was destroyed or he has no capability to cause harm in the future. What's left to gain is the removal of this threat to cause more harm.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2001 : 07:33:14 [Permalink]
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Garrette:
You've stated before that the U.S. is above the law, so I understand that you don't like the terms genocide and murder.
There are various people trying to assess the damage done by the sanctions. The 500,000 figure was the number of children in 1996 that a U.N. agency estimated were dead because of the sanctions. Other estimates bring the total to somewhere around 2 million. These are only estimates, as the only one with any real ability to count is the U.S., and they're not interested.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2001 : 10:27:47 [Permalink]
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Yes, just saying it without explanation I can see that it could be taken as a slam against service people in general, and I didn't mean it that way. My apologies.
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Regarding "Sand Niggers", Trish and Slater have responded in general, though I heard very little pervasive comments about the Iraqi soldiers. And if you are, as it seems, casting general accusations of racism, then you're not only mistaken, but stooping lower than is called for. I won't respond to this type of aspersion again.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2001 : 12:26:37 [Permalink]
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Let's try to clear some things up.
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You've stated before that the U.S. is above the law, so I understand that you don't like the terms genocide and murder.
If I thought the US was above the law, as you keep insisting, then I wouldn't care about the terms genocide and murder. As I have said in a few different ways: The notion of International Law as a set body of codes is just that--a notion (I made the exception for maritime law). There is an amorphous body of unwritten standards that the international community, usually in the form of the UN, attempts to apply. And they apply it selectively. The US pushes the bounds of these standards because the US is big and can get away with it. Smaller nations, particularly third world, push the bounds of these standards because a) there is not significant enough of a strategic interest for other nations to complain and/or b) they have the sympathy vote--just read the Kyoto treaty.
The US is bound by standards, conventions, and laws, in exactly the same manner that other nations are bound. My objection is to your contention that there is an absolute and unambiguous law out there that the US is somehow violating.
IF you produce a written codification of "International Law", you'll still have to demonstrate that the US has violated it, and claims that sanctions hurt Iraqis are not sufficient demonstration.
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The 500,000 figure was the number of children in 1996 that a U.N. agency estimated were dead because of the sanctions. Other estimates bring the total to somewhere around 2 million.
I confess that I knew this; it was a cheap trick on my part, perpetrated during a hastily written response. I apologize.
And since it seems to be a lurking side issue, even if such a law were codified and ratified, I am not yet prepared to acquiesce to the US's submission to an outside body as the supreme arbiter of its disputes and their resolutions.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2001 : 13:16:21 [Permalink]
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Rather than use the word "illegal" it would have been better if I'd used the word "criminal." The implications are slightly different.
However, I would think you would want the U.S. to adhere to a somewhat high standard. It obviously does not. As has been shown, there is no evidence that this is anything but a genocidal attack against a helpless population.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2001 : 13:31:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Rather than use the word "illegal" it would have been better if I'd used the word "criminal." The implications are slightly different.
However, I would think you would want the U.S. to adhere to a somewhat high standard.
Yes.
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As has been shown, there is no evidence that this is anything but a genocidal attack against a helpless population
No.
My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 05:56:02 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I just heard a blurb on the news this morning about the sanctions. I don't have details yet, but if I understood correctly, the US and UK are presenting a proposal for modifying the sanctions to ease restrictions on civilian imports and tighten restrictions and penalties on military imports (how they will make the distinction I do not know).
Russia and China are clamoring for a public debate over the proposal which the US and UK apparently oppose but which I personally support. It apears that Russia and China will prevail and debates will begin in a week or so.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 06:16:29 [Permalink]
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This is part of a press release from former U.N. Assistant Secretaries General Hans Von Sponeck and Denis Halliday after a trip to Iraq:
Asked what new insights they had obtained during this visit to Iraq, the former UN officials stated that they had found at all levels of contact a deep sense of frustration mixed with anger that after almost 11 years, the UN would even consider a proposal for greater strangulation of the Iraqi economy, the same economy that demands capital investment, prohibited by the Security Council, to end the high mortality rates, the social and economic misery and the damage to Iraqi culture and education. Von Sponeck and
Halliday consider the new proposals dangerously provocative, dishonest in their intentions and politically unrealistic as they would damage further the sovereignty of Iraq while at the same time infringing on that of their neighbors Turkey, Syria and Jordan. The border trade controls proposed by the UN would deny Iraq the hard currency it currently obtains outside the Oil for Food programme needed to run a nation of 23 million people. Its absence would not only affect all parts of Iraq including the Kurdish north but also quickly create unemployment and hardship for large numbers of civilians in neighbouring countries, particularly Jordan and Turkey. Life
in Iraq as anywhere else on earth is not only about food, it is about fundamental human rights such as housing, education, health care, family life, the very right to life itself, including opportunities for happiness. The return to Iraq of electric power, potable water, adequate sanitation, telecommunications and transportation as well as purchasing power for average Iraqis requires employment combined with a restored dinar and an economy free of UN bureaucracy.
Further the people of Iraq have an expectation and right to dignity in their
daily lives and a return to normalcy, not possible under the US/UK proposals. Controls and lists of civilian goods allowed into Iraq without restrictions are not what make for a sound economy and contented people. The same people, the UN and its Charter are legally obliged to protect and support in peace and well being . Expanded importation of civilian goods without purchasing power is unlikely to help the majority of Iraqi families. These are families traumatized by an unending embargo and tragic loss of
life within their immediate communities, together with fear of bombing in the so called No Fly Zones.
In the Iraqi Kurdish north, the former UN officials report similar views and a sense of being caught between the pain of sanctions and the value-added of the oil revenue obtained directly under UN auspices. The impact of the “smarter” sanctions would appear to devastate the growing economy the north is now enjoying form the cross border trade with Turkey and others. However, in the absence of an agreement with Baghdad on what form of autonomy would be appropriate today, there is anxiety about an end to the embargo before arrangements for security, revenue and some form of democracy are obtained through peaceful dialogue.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 11:13:03 [Permalink]
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A report from Iraq yesterday said that a bomb hit a soccer stadium in Iraq. One woman lost her four children, and 11 others were injured. What would we think about it if that were to happen in the U.S.? What would we think about it if it were a regular occurrence?
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 11:26:12 [Permalink]
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Not ignoring you. Extremely busy day with no promise of improvement; plus I want to read up on the proposed revisions to the sanctions and the bombings. Maybe more tonight, but possibly will have to wait until tomorrow.
My kids still love me. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 11:32:36 [Permalink]
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The only source of the report of this attack comes straight from the Iraqi government. That is the only source of this report. If you take a good look at it, you will see how ridiculous it looks. Why would the coalition bomb a football stadium? It would serve no purpose. I would need a litle more than the word of the thoroughly dicredited Iraqi goverment before I could begin to take this seriously.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 12:25:03 [Permalink]
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Yes, as opposed to the completely trustworthy U.S. State Department.
Actually, for the purposes of my question it doesn't matter who's right in this case. Hundreds have died from such terror bombings and this has been documented, as I've shown.
quote:
The only source of the report of this attack comes straight from the Iraqi government. That is the only source of this report. If you take a good look at it, you will see how ridiculous it looks. Why would the coalition bomb a football stadium? It would serve no purpose. I would need a litle more than the word of the thoroughly dicredited Iraqi goverment before I could begin to take this seriously.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 12:42:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Actually, for the purposes of my question it doesn't matter who's right in this case.
Actually it does matter if the reports are complete fabrications. At least as far as I'm concerned.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 12:58:35 [Permalink]
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Yes, the lives of four people are very important, and it is important that both sides start telling the truth. However, the reality of the terror bombing still exists.
quote:
quote:
Actually, for the purposes of my question it doesn't matter who's right in this case.
Actually it does matter if the reports are complete fabrications. At least as far as I'm concerned.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 13:34:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
However, the reality of the terror bombing still exists.
Terror bombing? You mean like when Iraq launched scud missles at Israel? Now THAT's terror bombing.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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