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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2001 : 13:50:14 [Permalink]
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I think Madeleine Albright (or was it Garrette) would say that that only meant that they cared about the Israelis.
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However, the reality of the terror bombing still exists.
Terror bombing? You mean like when Iraq launched scud missles at Israel? Now THAT's terror bombing.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 14:07:15 [Permalink]
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It's hard to carry on a real discussion if you're going to be silly about it
If you go back and reread this topic there are many instances where you accuse everyone that disagrees with you of using invalid sources for information. You, on the otherhand, seem to have access to the only pure information which, as it turns out comes from extremely biased web pages with a few quotes from disgruntled UN employees and the Iraqi goverment itself. I would get out of the glass house before throwing more stones.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 14:20:28 [Permalink]
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If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I said that there was a report. How good a report remains to be seen.
I have asked for some kind of idea why you think the way that you do. All you can do is make pronouncements from on high that "Saddam" is to blame and the U.S. has never swayed from the direction of God himself and all his little angels.
The information that I get comes from people like those who actually ran the Oil-For-Food program, and understand how the U.S. terrorist campaign works.
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It's hard to carry on a real discussion if you're going to be silly about it
If you go back and reread this topic there are many instances where you accuse everyone that disagrees with you of using invalid sources for information. You, on the otherhand, seem to have access to the only pure information which, as it turns out comes from extremely biased web pages with a few quotes from disgruntled UN employees and the Iraqi goverment itself. I would get out of the glass house before throwing more stones.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 14:26:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
U.S. terrorist campaign
Phrases like this and words like evil and genocide betray an extreme degree of bias and lack of objectivity.
And if anyone dares to disagree with you then they are just swallowing the government propaganda. Pah-leeze.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 14:38:16 [Permalink]
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Your emotional attachments are yours, and can't be put on me. I didn't use the word 'evil' to describe anyone. I was asking someone else if they were describing something as 'evil.'
Genocide is a legal term, and I've explained the reasons for that term, but you must have been off sick that day.
Terrorism is a word that people use to describe what they do, when they do what we do, but we are above those terms.
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Phrases like this and words like evil and genocide betray an extreme degree of bias and lack of objectivity.
And if anyone dares to disagree with you then they are just swallowing the government propaganda. Pah-leeze.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2001 : 23:25:48 [Permalink]
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In one of your earlier posts Gorgo - you state something to the effect of we're not skeptics or skeptical because we didn't immediately fall in line with your sense of reason on this subject. You have resorted to all sorts of innuendo to make your point. You also use language almost guaranteed to create dissent and misunderstanding. Have you ever read Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things? Several of your approaches are described in detail in that book. That is all I will say on the subject...I will continue to argue for the future protection of the International Community and those that would be threatened by Saddam and his military and political asperations.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 01:02:47 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
I told you that it had to be done with permission. "Appropriately" is your opinion. It is appropriate for a lot of reasons.
There are ways of handling this. They were given the option of following the law or breaking the law. They chose to break the law. They had other options. Maybe they should try working within the frame of the law. They were told what there options were and told what the penalty for breaking the law is. This wasn't a threat, IMO, as your post first implied. They were offered a direct line to speak with someone regarding this issue. They acted inappropriately in choosing to ignore the options, instead choosing to break the law. I have no sympathy, they did this knowing the options.
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Gorgo:
"Backing down" from what? Garrette has said that the U.S. has won. The U.S. has killed and crippled millions. The U.S. has seen that Iraq couldn't attack anyone, much less defend themselves for decades. The U.S. has seen to it that the Arab world hates and mistrusts us. What other worthwhile goals are there to be gained?
Security in an area is a worthwhile goal. Saddam has chosen to rebuild his military instead of caring for the Iraqi people. As long as Saddam is a military threat in the region withdrawl of US/UN troops will appear as backing down.
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Gorgo:
Guess, I didn't realize that U.S. troops were in Egypt. Isn't the Sinai Penninsula in Egypt? Where else are they? Aren't they in Saudi Arabia?
Yeah, there are, the Multinational Force of Observers:
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The Multinational Force and Observers is an independent (non-UN) peacekeeping mission, created as a result of the 1978 Camp David Accords and the 1979 Treaty of Peace. The MFO's expenses, less the contributions of Germany and Japan, are funded in equal parts by the Arab Republic of Egypt, the State of Israel and the United States of America. Since 1982, various nations have contributed military and civilian personnel to serve in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as part of this highly successful organization. The ten currently Participating States are Australia, Canada, Colombia, Fiji, France, Hungary, Italy, New Zealand, the United States and Uruguay. Norway, while not a Participating State, provides the MFO with four staff officers.
However, I was mistaken in referring to the Sinai Penninsula, my apologies. The Saudia Arabian Penninsula.
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Garrette:
And since it seems to be a lurking side issue, even if such a law were codified and ratified, I am not yet prepared to acquiesce to the US's submission to an outside body as the supreme arbiter of its disputes and their resolutions.
I will join Garrette here, I am not prepared either. Nor I think are millions of Americans.
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Gorgo:
A report from Iraq yesterday said that a bomb hit a soccer stadium in Iraq. One woman lost her four children, and 11 others were injured. What would we think about it if that were to happen in the U.S.? What would we think about it if it were a regular occurrence?
Not that this will mean much to you...but both the US and the UK have denied bombing the soccer stadium. This report was released by Saddam and the Iraqi government. It's almost like that game kids play, 'He hit me...' to get the brother in trouble. I'd need to see evidence that this is not a ploy of some type by Saddam.
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Gorgo:
Actually, for the purposes of my question it doesn't matter who's right in this case. Hundreds have died from such terror bombings and this has been documented, as I've shown.
Yes, Gorgo it does matter who's *right* here. This is either a fabrication on the part of the Iraqi government to gain international sympathy (likely) or the UN forces deliberately bombed a group of civilians (unlikely). My opinions of course. However, this is *designed* to raise mistrust of the US/UK/UN. I doubt the US/UK/UN would make such a tactical error as this.
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Gorgo:
I think Madeleine Albright (or was it Garrette) would say that that only meant that they cared about the Israelis.
The US did a lot to ensure the Israelis stayed out of this conflict. In part because it would have been political suicide for the Israelis to become involved and could have caused the operation to fall apart. There were, also, as I recall, some issues with the Egyptians and the Camp David Accords. Iraq *knew* what it was doing when it launched those missiles at a country that was NOT involved in the conflict.
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@tomic:
If you go back and reread this topic there are many instances where you accuse everyone that disagrees with you of using invalid sources for information. You, on the otherhand, seem to have access to the only pure information which, as it turns out comes from extremely biased web pages with a few quotes from disgruntled UN employees and the Iraqi goverment itself. I would get out of the glass house before throwing more stones.
It would appear that Gorgo refuses to see any point of view beyond his own on this subject @tomic. From Gorgos view official sources are suspect because the US chooses to perpetrate crimes against a nation that is incapable of defending itself. There is a simple solution here, Saddam and Iraq comply with the UN as regards UNSC resolutions. Or allow more humanitarian aid to reach the Iraqi populace. From Gorgos view neither of those options are acceptable, the bully US must withdraw its forces and allow Saddam free reign to restore his military might, invade another country and start this whole mess all over again. And, of course, it's OK to break the law if you don't agree with it or do not want to work within the bounds of the law. There are other ways to work within the system to bring attention to this issue beside b |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 03:46:41 [Permalink]
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I have read Shermer's book. It isn't that you disagree with me.
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In one of your earlier posts Gorgo - you state something to the effect of we're not skeptics or skeptical because we didn't immediately fall in line with your sense of reason on this subject. You have resorted to all sorts of innuendo to make your point. You also use language almost guaranteed to create dissent and misunderstanding. Have you ever read Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things? Several of your approaches are described in detail in that book. That is all I will say on the subject...I will continue to argue for the future protection of the International Community and those that would be threatened by Saddam and his military and political asperations.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 03:57:36 [Permalink]
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@tomic and +rish. Just because you keep repeating things doesn't make it true. I didn't say that who tells the truth doesn't matter. I said that I'd like both sides to start telling the truth. The terror bombing has been documented, of that there is no question. The U.S. had no business unlilaterally creating "No-Fly" zones, and "No-Drive" zones and creating that kind of terror campaign.
You have decided that you're right regardless of the facts. Even if it is true that the U.S. knows that it's murdering millions of people, you don't care, because you believe the hype about Saddam being Satan. Yes, I brought up God, because you act like religious devotees. I understand that both sides are wrong. You could not possibly even see that possibility, and any criticism of the U.S. must end in my excommunication (remember someone's 'love it or leave it speech?).
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 04:06:02 [Permalink]
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I quote Tokyodreamer, the one that used the word evil:
"Or is your real goal just to rail against how evil the U.S. is, and you really couldn't care less what you used as evidence? (In other words, you couldn't care less about the Iraqi people, they're just good material to use for your own propoganda)."
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 04:13:27 [Permalink]
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As to the religious question, I think it was Dan Barker where I learned the idea of asking fundies certain questions. Whoever it was, stated something like, "I think it would be okay if I'm wrong, can you say the same thing?" The question partly applies here, because I hope that I'm wrong, but of course no one would hope that I'm right. However, when asked a different way, one can see something interesting happening. One can see that the question really means, are you emotionally attached to the outcome? Is your self-worth based on your ideas? I've been wrong before, and I hope I'm wrong this time. What I've seen here is other people telling me, "YOU ARE WRONG AND YOU MUST AGREE OR LEAVE THE COUNTRY UNTIL YOU'RE RIGHT!"
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 05:00:11 [Permalink]
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Trish (I think) said earlier something to the effect that the Voices in the Wilderness had no solution to the problem of Iraq. That's not true. This is a statement which they support:
http://www.nonviolence.org/vitw/Q&AII.html
I would support it too, if I thought it were possible that the U.S. had any interest in what "Saddam" does other than using what he does as an excuse to militarily dominate the area. If what they say can be accomplished, I'm all for it. I just have my doubts and think that it is better settled by the people in the area the way that they wanted to do it to begin with.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 06:08:01 [Permalink]
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It's called "civil disobedience."
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There are ways of handling this. They were given the option of following the law or breaking the law. They chose to break the law. They had other options. Maybe they should try working within the frame of the law. They were told what there options were and told what the penalty for breaking the law is. This wasn't a threat, IMO, as your post first implied. They were offered a direct line to speak with someone regarding this issue. They acted inappropriately in choosing to ignore the options, instead choosing to break the law. I have no sympathy, they did this knowing the options.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 06:11:35 [Permalink]
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Thank you for making my point.
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You are assuming an emotional attachment. I do have an emotional attachment to the military, it is a part of what defines who I am, still just a part.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 06:41:59 [Permalink]
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All you need to do to get me to think a little harder is to answer the question that no one will answer that the "free press" must have tons of information about.
quote:
It's hard to carry on a real discussion if you're going to be silly about it
If you go back and reread this topic there are many instances where you accuse everyone that disagrees with you of using invalid sources for information. You, on the otherhand, seem to have access to the only pure information which, as it turns out comes from extremely biased web pages with a few quotes from disgruntled UN employees and the Iraqi goverment itself. I would get out of the glass house before throwing more stones.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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