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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/12/2001 : 05:37:23 [Permalink]
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Well, this is so true. The U.S. has repeatedly destroyed any hope of democracies in many countries along with the U.K.
Yes, I'm not sure what Trish's point is with Manifest Destiny. She thinks that explains something somehow.
It will be a while before any group of people gets together the strength to do much damage to the U.S. The time is getting shorter with U.S. behavior. With the genocide of the Iraqi people and U.S. support of Israeli terrorism, the time is getting shorter. The U.S. will have to slaughter and terrorize and buy more and more Arabs and Muslims to keep them from getting together. The U.S. will prevail for a while, probably a long while, although even its allies are getting a little squeamish at the pompous disregard for international law.
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Whereever the US had a controlling interest in a dictatorship it could get rid of that dictatorship, surely sending Marines to...
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 07:39:11 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, just a friendly suggestion: use of words like 'genocide', 'terrorism', and phrases like 'slaughter of innocent people', really only hurt your argument. You sound like a raving fundy. You may believe that the terms are accurate, but I can assure you that you are in the minority, and you would do much better getting your point across (whatever that is, I still haven't quite figured that out yet) by using less inflammatory wording. No one will take you seriously if you keep using silly exaggerations.
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 07:49:35 [Permalink]
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Well, if by "evil" you mean destructive, I think that would be important to know in and of itself, wouldn't you? If by "Evil" you mean servant of Satan, then I think you might have a bigger problem than figuring out this discussion.
Servant of Satan?! I don't even know what you're talking about here.
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At this point it's important to help the Iraqis rebuild their society. I don't think we should hang George Bush and Bill Clinton, and I don't much go for trials, but some indication that we understand our crimes would be a good idea.
Then, maybe we could sort through some of crap thrown by all sides enough to decide how to help people in the world run their own lives.
So you want the U.S. to make a public apology, admit that what they did and are doing is a horrible crime against humanity, and then start sending money and supplies to Iraq to help 'rebuild their society'? Is this before or after Saddam is removed from power? What was their society like before we committed these horrible attrocities? Do you really think Saddam would use any aid we send to help his people, or will he (kinda like the North Koreans) redirect most, if not all, of the money to his military?
See, nothing bugs me more than people who seem so impassioned about an ideal or cause, but do nothing but whine about how evil ________ is, without a single constructive thing to say. It makes me very suspicious of their true motives.
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 08:01:31 [Permalink]
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Believe me, I have been told that for years by people who agree with me. Genocide is not my term, but a term used by Denis Halliday, former Asst U.N. Sec'y General, and former U.S. Atty General Ramsey Clark. It's a legal term, and is in no way a silly exaggeration.
Terrorism, of course, is the objective. I understand that people don't want their false gods exposed, but there is no difference between the terrorism we think belongs to everyone else, and the terrorism that we cause.
I really appreciate your taking a reasonable tone. It's refreshing to find.
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Gorgo, just a friendly suggestion: use of words like 'genocide', 'terrorism', and phrases like 'slaughter of innocent people', really only hurt your argument. You sound like a raving fundy. You may believe that the terms are accurate, but I can assure you that you are in the minority, and you would do much better getting your point across (whatever that is, I still haven't quite figured that out yet) by using less inflammatory wording. No one will take you seriously if you keep using silly exaggerations.
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Gambatte kudasai!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 08:05:38 [Permalink]
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As you'll recall, I am not the one that used the word evil, and your anger is irrelevant to the discussion.
Admitting our crimes and helping the Iraqi people rebuild their society is a constructive answer to the problem.
If you don't know what the society of Iraq was like before the U.S. attack, you might want to do some research.
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So you want the U.S. to make a public apology, admit that what they did and are doing is a horrible crime against humanity, and then start sending money and supplies to Iraq to help 'rebuild their society'? Is this before or after Saddam is removed from power? What was their society like before we committed these horrible attrocities? Do you really think Saddam would use any aid we send to help his people, or will he (kinda like the North Koreans) redirect most, if not all, of the money to his military?
See, nothing bugs me more than people who seem so impassioned about an ideal or cause, but do nothing but whine about how evil ________ is, without a single constructive thing to say. It makes me very suspicious of their true motives.
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Gambatte kudasai!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 08:57:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Admitting our crimes and helping the Iraqi people rebuild their society is a constructive answer to the problem.
What about Saddam?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 09:22:07 [Permalink]
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Building a credible International Court, which the U.S. is deathly afraid of, would be a start. Saddam ain't no threat to anyone at this point. Why are you worried about Saddam? The U.S. government ain't.
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Admitting our crimes and helping the Iraqi people rebuild their society is a constructive answer to the problem.
What about Saddam?
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Gambatte kudasai!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 11:38:40 [Permalink]
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My two cents please.
This is a discussion that can be quite fascinating but obviously is very personal to some people. The accusatory language used to start the conversation has led to some defensiveness. Let's all have some respect for each other.
On the other hand, it is easy for us to sit here and laugh at / be angry at creationists and spiritualists. It is even more important for us to be skeptical about what we think we know.
It is legitimate to question any historical event. Whether an event is right or wrong (ie the Vietnam War) takes nothing away from the heroism and sacrifice of those involved on either side. My late father was in the 4th Marine division on Okinowa preparing for the invasion of Japan when the atomic bombs were dropped and ended the war. Whether or not those bombs should have been dropped is a ligitimate question. Right or wrong has nothing to do with my personal attachment to it (if it didn't happen, I may not have been here).
There are three questions here that need to be answered.
1. Are the sanctions against Iraq doing any good, or are they keeping Saddam Houssein in power while the population suffers.
2. If they are keeping Saddam in power, what else can be done.
3. Is the US/UN culpable for the suffering of the Iraqi people.
Best regards,
Greg.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 13:08:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
There are three questions here that need to be answered.
1. Are the sanctions against Iraq doing any good, or are they keeping Saddam Houssein in power while the population suffers.
2. If they are keeping Saddam in power, what else can be done.
3. Is the US/UN culpable for the suffering of the Iraqi people.
Best regards,
Greg.
I defer to people like Richard Butler, Scott Ritter, Hans Von Sponeck, Denis Halliday and others who have dealt with the Iraqis. They all agree for one reason or another that the sanctions are counterproductive at best.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_777000/777306.stm
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 13:38:37 [Permalink]
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Why are you worried about Saddam?
Hmmm, now I'm beginning to wonder if it's you who are putting us on.
No Saddam, no sanctions. If you were really so concerned about the Iraqi people, you would most certainly care about how Saddam is at least as responsible as the U.N. for the state that they are in.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 13:53:01 [Permalink]
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Iraq couldn't even beat Iran without U.S. aid. After a decade of war, Iraq was certainly no threat to anyone. After over a decade of sanctions, it's absurd to worry about Iraq. Every country in the region has WMD, most of them supplied by the U.S. Some of them illegally.
Until there is some plausible international law, the law will not matter to those who can break it with impunity, like the U.S.
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Hmmm, now I'm beginning to wonder if it's you who are putting us on.
No Saddam, no sanctions. If you were really so concerned about the Iraqi people, you would most certainly care about how Saddam is at least as responsible as the U.N. for the state that they are in.
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Gambatte kudasai!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 14:14:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
The differing views split the five members of the council along traditional lines, with Washington and London calling for a sanctions overhaul now, while Moscow, Paris and Beijing say such major changes require more time than the seven working days left until the sanctions renewal date.
From an article on June 6, 2001. http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/iraq1/oilforfood/2001/0606ala.htm
Sounds like the U.S. and Britain are trying to ease up, but other countries are the ones who are holding it back.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 14:17:31 [Permalink]
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Well, this is most likely my last response, as you are just getting more absurd with every post.
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After a decade of war, Iraq was certainly no threat to anyone. After over a decade of sanctions, it's absurd to worry about Iraq.
Tell that to the next Kuwaity you see.
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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 14:52:36 [Permalink]
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Every country in the region has WMD, most of them supplied by the U.S. Some of them illegally.
Umm, try the former soviet union and China as the source for most military hardware in the region and the world.
When do you plan on going to Iraq to deliver babies and help the downtrodden people better their lives? My guess is that you are gonna stay whereever you are, nice and fat and sassy. I would wager that you may even be living right here in the US where you actually have the right to talk shit about the Govt.
Isn't the US great!!!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 15:01:24 [Permalink]
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Sieg Heil!
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quote:
Every country in the region has WMD, most of them supplied by the U.S. Some of them illegally.
Umm, try the former soviet union and China as the source for most military hardware in the region and the world.
When do you plan on going to Iraq to deliver babies and help the downtrodden people better their lives? My guess is that you are gonna stay whereever you are, nice and fat and sassy. I would wager that you may even be living right here in the US where you actually have the right to talk shit about the Govt.
Isn't the US great!!!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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