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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2001 : 13:14:18 [Permalink]
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Great Googly Moogly, but I've totally lost the point of this topic! Gorgo, you think the U.S. is commiting genocide on innocent Iraqis by leaving the sanctions in place? Is that about the jist of it? If this is so, then what is your proposed solution? Should we go in and take over the government? Should we supply the Iraqi people with weapons and help them overthrow Saddam themselves? Should we lift the sanctions and just forget the whole thing, and let Saddam do whatever he wants? Should we assassinate him and his immediate family? What?
Or is your real goal just to rail against how evil the U.S. is, and you really couldn't care less what you used as evidence? (In other words, you couldn't care less about the Iraqi people, they're just good material to use for your own propoganda).
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 13:31:38 [Permalink]
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Well, if by "evil" you mean destructive, I think that would be important to know in and of itself, wouldn't you? If by "Evil" you mean servant of Satan, then I think you might have a bigger problem than figuring out this discussion.
At this point it's important to help the Iraqis rebuild their society. I don't think we should hang George Bush and Bill Clinton, and I don't much go for trials, but some indication that we understand our crimes would be a good idea.
Then, maybe we could sort through some of crap thrown by all sides enough to decide how to help people in the world run their own lives.
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Great Googly Moogly, but I've totally lost the point of this topic! Gorgo, you think the U.S. is commiting genocide on innocent Iraqis by leaving the sanctions in place? Is that about the jist of it? If this is so, then what is your proposed solution? Should we go in and take over the government? Should we supply the Iraqi people with weapons and help them overthrow Saddam themselves? Should we lift the sanctions and just forget the whole thing, and let Saddam do whatever he wants? Should we assassinate him and his immediate family? What?
Or is your real goal just to rail against how evil the U.S. is, and you really couldn't care less what you used as evidence? (In other words, you couldn't care less about the Iraqi people, they're just good material to use for your own propoganda).
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Gambatte kudasai!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 14:15:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
At this point it's important to help the Iraqis rebuild their society...some indication that we understand our crimes would be a good idea.
Oh I see. The US and the UN are the criminals and those poor innocent Iraqis are our victims.
That pretty much answers Tokyodreamer's question.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 14:43:55 [Permalink]
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Yes, the children that are being slaughtered by the U.S. are Evil clones of Hitler and must be stopped at all costs.
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At this point it's important to help the Iraqis rebuild their society...some indication that we understand our crimes would be a good idea.
Oh I see. The US and the UN are the criminals and those poor innocent Iraqis are our victims.
That pretty much answers Tokyodreamer's question.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 16:26:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
What you did was what you thought you should do. Thank you for that much.
Just as long as you remember that every scar and every lost life by the service men and women give you the right to say you hate the US without reprisal! Remember, these men and women make less than minimum wage a lot of the time, yet they choose the possibility of laying their life on the line for your sorry self and your right to freedom. When was the last time you worked 24-48 hours per day preparing to go to war in service to your country? Guess, never. When were you in the dirt waking up to klaxons signaling an NBC attack? Guess, never. When did you learn to sleep through flight ops so you could fix planes to fly again? Guess, never. Have you served your country to maintain its freedoms?
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Yes, the children that are being slaughtered by the U.S. are Evil clones of Hitler and must be stopped at all costs.
I don't think this is an accurate view the US gov or any of its service members hold. I think we've pointed you to sufficient information to show that Saddam has it in his power to stop the needless suffering of his people. He must comply with the UNSC resolutions regarding his invasion of Kuwait.
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At this point it's important to help the Iraqis rebuild their society.
The US is known for rebuilding the infra-struction of countries it's gone to war with, look at Japan and the European railsystems. The US supplied the money and technology to rebuild after WWII.
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Well, if by "evil" you mean destructive, I think that would be important to know in and of itself, wouldn't you?
War is evil. It's not a pretty walk through the tulips dear. Saddam has it within his power to end this evil reign of terror you describe. Why doesn't he cooperate with the UN? Your buying into his propoganda against the UN and the US. Read the UNSC Resolutions instead of someone elses opinions regarding the situation. Your regurgitating information being supplied from the Iraqi propoganda machine. I can also lay you odds that Saddam doesn't go hungry at night. If he's concerned about his people shouldn't he feed them first himself second. I know when I've been short my kid came first she didn't go hungry when I did.
You don't like the US, move. No one's stopping you from leaving the country.
Slater, one vet to another: Semper Fi!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Edited by - Trish on 06/11/2001 16:29:12 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 16:35:27 [Permalink]
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Okay. I get it. You guys really are putting me on and had me swallowing it all. I thought you might be serious until I read this.
Love it or leave it? HA! That's an old one but a good one. Thanks for the laughs. Did you ever write for Guideposts or Reader's Digest?
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Just as long as you remember that every scar and every lost life by the service men and women give you the right to say you hate the US without reprisal! Remember, these men and women make less than minimum wage a lot of the time, yet they choose the possibility of laying their life on the line for your sorry self and your right to freedom. When was the last time you worked 24-48 hours per day preparing to go to war in service to your country? Guess, never. When were you in the dirt waking up to klaxons signaling an NBC attack? Guess, never. When did you learn to sleep through flight ops so you could fix planes to fly again? Guess, never. Have you served your country to maintain its freedoms?
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Yes, the children that are being slaughtered by the U.S. are Evil clones of Hitler and must be stopped at all costs.
I don't think this is an accurate view the US gov or any of its service members hold. I think we've pointed you to sufficient information to show that Saddam has it in his power to stop the needless suffering of his people. He must comply with the UNSC resolutions regarding his invasion of Kuwait.
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At this point it's important to help the Iraqis rebuild their society.
The US is known for rebuilding the infra-struction of countries it's gone to war with, look at Japan and the European railsystems. The US supplied the money and technology to rebuild after WWII.
quote:
Well, if by "evil" you mean destructive, I think that would be important to know in and of itself, wouldn't you?
War is evil. It's not a pretty walk through the tulips dear. Saddam has it within his power to end this evil reign of terror you describe. Why doesn't he cooperate with the UN? Your buying into his propoganda against the UN and the US. Read the UNSC Resolutions instead of someone elses opinions regarding the situation. Your regurgitating information being supplied from the Iraqi propoganda machine. I can also lay you odds that Saddam doesn't go hungry at night. If he's concerned about his people shouldn't he feed them first himself second. I know when I've been short my kid came first she didn't go hungry when I did.
You don't like the US, move. No one's stopping you from leaving the country.
Slater, one vet to another: Semper Fi!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Edited by - Trish on 06/11/2001 16:29:12
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 17:55:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes, the children that are being slaughtered by the U.S. are Evil clones of Hitler and must be stopped at all costs.
Ahhh, accusations of baby killing. Haven't heard those in awhile. They were before your time Trish. I remember I had a couple of days leave in San Francisco during The Summer of Love and I was in uniform. One young Hippie lady screamed at me on the street that I was a baby killer and spat in my face. Now why she thought that she could get away with impunity doing something like that to a murderer I don't know. Of course nothing happened. I was stunned but I didn't say or do anything due to the fact that I was in uniform.
This Gorgo is a joke. Sounds like a refuge from "Darma & Greg"
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 18:05:58 [Permalink]
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You know, if George Sr. had let the troops finish the job back in '91 we wouldn't even be having this conversation and Noriega would have someone to play cards with.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 19:07:56 [Permalink]
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That was a stupid thing to do. I have nothing but the greatest of respect for people in the military and for people in the government. Not to mention the press. They are all difficult jobs, not to say that they are all the same degree of difficulty certainly.
In fact, I love this country. The person who said that I hated it is certainly confused. Why would I want to see it improved if I hated it? What an incredible thing to think.
You on the other hand have seen the world. You're not as uneducated or starry-eyed. You know you risk losing any credibility that you have by your ad hominem attacks and unreasonable comparisons.
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Ahhh, accusations of baby killing. Haven't heard those in awhile. They were before your time Trish. I remember I had a couple of days leave in San Francisco during The Summer of Love and I was in uniform. One young Hippie lady screamed at me on the street that I was a baby killer and spat in my face. Now why she thought that she could get away with impunity doing something like that to a murderer I don't know. Of course nothing happened. I was stunned but I didn't say or do anything due to the fact that I was in uniform.
This Gorgo is a joke. Sounds like a refuge from "Darma & Greg"
When the dead talk -- they talk to him
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 19:09:40 [Permalink]
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Yes, certainly the U.S. has the right to attack other countries, like Panama, for political reasons and no one else does without U.S. permission.
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You know, if George Sr. had let the troops finish the job back in '91 we wouldn't even be having this conversation and Noriega would have someone to play cards with.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 23:15:55 [Permalink]
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What you did was what you thought you should do. Thank you for that much.
Maybe I misunderstood this statement. This doesn't sound like you approve or respect the military.
Slater, it's a damn shame that things like that should happen anywhere. Yeah, I've heard that before. One of the best people I worked with was in Nam and came home to be ostrasized by his hometown.
And I was subjected to a verbal attack by a woman shortly after being discharged. On this very issue: Iraq. Basically that everyone in the military is a baby killer and doesn't give a damn about the sanctity of human life. I asked her how she liked her BMW and left it at that.
I know I've pointed this out somewhere before in this thread, Manifest Destiny is the justification for going into Panama. History lesson time again I guess. Manifest Destiny is the statement that the United States as the dominant political power in the Western Hemisphere is responsible for maintaining stability in the Western Hemisphere. These are the tenets that we used to keep Soviet missiles out of Cuba during the sixities under JFK. These are the tenets we used when we entered Panama. The only non-justifiable part of the Panama situation was that the Army was sent without prior approval of Congress. The President should have sent the Marines instead, since the Marines are the only active military force that can go anywhere without congressional approval. That was the whole issue with Panama.
Gorgo, take care, some of your *implications* can be also taken as ad hominen. This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Edited by - Trish on 06/11/2001 23:21:52 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 00:55:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
That was a stupid thing to do...You're not as uneducated or starry-eyed. You know you risk losing any credibility that you have by your ad hominem attacks and unreasonable comparisons.
I see, you are a booster for Iraqi websites, and talk of mythical children our GIs are killing.
Guess what? I am not concerned at the possibility of losing credibility with you. In fact I would take it as a compliment.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 01:59:59 [Permalink]
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In fact, I love this country. The person who said that I hated it is certainly confused. Why would I want to see it improved if I hated it? What an incredible thing to think.
Um, I think I asked a question, not made a statement of fact.
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You know, if George Sr. had let the troops finish the job back in '91 we wouldn't even be having this conversation and Noriega would have someone to play cards with.
Yeah, well this was never the objective. We were aware of that going in, tho we did wonder if that objective would change. Idle speculation over the course...
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Okay. I get it. You guys really are putting me on and had me swallowing it all. I thought you might be serious until I read this.
Serious? Hmmm, yeah I'm serious, I think the UN sanctions should stand against Iraq until Saddam cooperates. I also think your swallowing Iraqi propoganda, hook, line and sinker. I take it that from a later post you think this a little *naive* and *starry-eyed*? Well your opinion...
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Love it or leave it? HA! That's an old one but a good one. Thanks for the laughs. Did you ever write for Guideposts or Reader's Digest?
Um, no. I don't even read those rags. Did you have a point here or were you attempting to poke fun at something/one? (um, ad hominen ring a bell here?)
And, since you copied the entire post I'm not really sure exactly which part of it your mocking. Care to clue me in here? I'd really like to know so I can support what I believe in the face of your oh so tacit disapproval of my writing style and my beliefs here.
Live where you like, don't much care. You mock the US, paint it as an evil monstrosity and expect me to roll over. Um, don't think so, nope. Just offering you the option out of a country you claim to love but insist upon declaring as an evil entity.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 04:24:41 [Permalink]
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Whereever the US had a controlling interest in a dictatorship it could get rid of that dictatorship, surely sending Marines to replace dictatorship with democracy would be much better then sending them to uphold a dictatoship and crush pro-democracy rebels?
As for manifest destiny, if people seriously believe that I'm getting some ICBMs and nuking the US, their minifest destiny can then be to go back to the stone age.
The US is starting to get too damn pompus and arrogant, and the fact that the US never lost a war (just like Japan in 1944).
The CIA has a habit of putting dictatorships in power, then a few decades later the US military have to go crush those CIA funded dictatorships.
Next war wont be as bloodless on the allied side as the gulf was.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 05:30:00 [Permalink]
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Okay, so you're serious. Then pay attention. If you'd been paying attention, you'd see that your UN website is irrelevant. Find the first issue of Talk Magazine in '99 and you'll see that in Richard Butler's own words.
I understand your fear and that of the others. You don't like your false gods exposed. I haven't painted this country as any more of a monstrosity than any other country in the past. They all do it. It's just that the U.S. is best at propaganda.
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Serious? Hmmm, yeah I'm serious, I think the UN sanctions should stand against Iraq until Saddam cooperates. I also think your swallowing Iraqi propoganda, hook, line and sinker. I take it that from a later post you think this a little *naive* and *starry-eyed*? Well your opinion...
Um, no. I don't even read those rags. Did you have a point here or were you attempting to poke fun at something/one? (um, ad hominen ring a bell here?)
Stop the murder of the Iraq people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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