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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
 Posted - 03/24/2002 : 10:18:27 [Permalink]
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Trish, you talk about "paying for the burden". I think this is kind of a misleading argument to which I would respond "what if this mass of cells ends up contributing to society"?
It seems to me that I remember every fuckin thing I know. (Tragically Hip) |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 16:56:11 [Permalink]
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>>I think this is kind of a misleading argument to which I would respond "what if this mass of cells ends up contributing to society"?<<
I think that the Misanthropic B*tch had a good comeback to a similar question. That mass of cells could just as well be born and "torture kittens, wet his bed, listen to some ridiculous death metal band, be socially inept and eventually, stalk women like prey to compensate for his sexual inadequacies."
Edited by - Antie on 03/24/2002 17:04:35 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 18:03:11 [Permalink]
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[quote]Trish, you talk about "paying for the burden". I think this is kind of a misleading argument to which I would respond "what if this mass of cells ends up contributing to society"?
It seems to me that I remember every fuckin thing I know. (Tragically Hip)[/quote]
A child, until it is old enough to care for itself, is a burden upon society if and only if it is unsupported by means of family willing to put forth the effort to raise the child. Look at welfare for instance.
As to the argument of what the child may become, unless you believe in a determinalistic future there can be no conception of what that child will become. Even so, regardless of the 'next Einstein' argument, there is only the potential and not the reality and until the reality exists it is not possible to know what potential exists. Basically back to a 'nuture vs nature' argument.
Oh, thought I'd add a paraphrase of Margret Thatcher, I believe it was: It's nice when the argument breaks down to the ad hominem, it means the opposition has no valid argument left.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
<i>No Sense of Obligation</i> by Matt Young
Edited by - Trish on 03/24/2002 18:05:12 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 20:04:05 [Permalink]
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[quote]
[quote]
As to the argument of what the child may become, unless you believe in a determinalistic future there can be no conception of what that child will become.
[/quote]
Making such decisions statistically (on projected benefit/ burden to society/ population growth issues) treads too close to the "Dr. Strangelove" mentality for my comfort (if what I advocate coincides with the "social engineer's viewpoint," it's not for the same reasons, even though government constantly makes decisions that cost lives directly and indirectly, for the overall benefit we hope.)
Abortion's an undesirable, and sometimes traumatic event, and I'm glad I haven't had to wrestle with the issues of unexpected pregnancy on the part of a significant other… but I think it's necessary to allow personal choice in the matter for the benefit of the woman in all cases. Third trimester abortions clearly get into some very "gray" areas, and I find them saddening, yet I still consider neither myself, nor anyone else qualified to render judgement as to whether a woman "must" endure motherhood. Nor do I think anyone's qualified to make "N weeks" judgements… that means "Yes," I admittedly advocate killing in the potential interest of the emotional and/or physical health of half our population. Other side of coin- I wish the Anti-Abortion crowd would direct their well-intended energies towards helping others who are clearly needy and suffering; the homeless, for instance… but that's hard, dirty work, unlike just telling everyone else to sacrifice and abide by one's wishes.
Ron White |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 09:31:23 [Permalink]
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Question here, how'd we get to Dr Strangelove? I was speaking of Determinalism - though I can't remember who's Philosophy that is.
Additionally Badger, I wanted to ask, if the worry of what that 'child' will become is a factor against abortion then it would seem to logically follow that contraception should also be disallowed under the law. Because by preventing a pregnancy you are, in effect, preventing the conception of the 'next Einstien.' Where then would you draw the line between abortion and contraception because in both instances you prevent some future person from becoming or living to it's potential. By this argument you blur the line between the legality or illegality of contraception also.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
<i>No Sense of Obligation</i> by Matt Young |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 10:53:53 [Permalink]
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[quote]
I think that the Misanthropic B*tch had a good comeback to a similar question. That mass of cells could just as well be born and "torture kittens, wet his bed, listen to some ridiculous death metal band, be socially inept and eventually, stalk women like prey to compensate for his sexual inadequacies."
Edited by - Antie on 03/24/2002 17:04:35
[/quote]
Who are you refering to Antie? For such an emotional subject, I thought everyone was doing a pretty good job with point/counter point, without resorting to name-calling.
Sorry if I've misunderstood.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 13:19:11 [Permalink]
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Thanks for clearing that up TD. Pretty wild site, I've bookmarked it for later.
My faith in my fellow board members is now restored. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 14:07:46 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Question here, how'd we get to Dr Strangelove?
[/quote]
A bit of a joke (I guess it wasn't a good one)... point being that heading in the direction of China, where reproductive behaviors and related matters, for the overall good, become part of policy doesn't set well with me. The areas are too human and personal for that kind of thinking, unless disasterous population problems are coming, and action has to be taken.
Ron White |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 16:06:32 [Permalink]
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Trish, I'm not attacking or calling names, so I apologize if it came across that way.
People will continue to have abortions, no matter what, as sometimes kids can be an unnecessary burden.
And my own thought is that the individual begins when the sperm and egg make a complete set of DNA. I also think in these terms with regard to test tube babies, and clones.
It seems to me that I remember every fuckin thing I know. (Tragically Hip) |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2002 : 02:09:47 [Permalink]
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[quote]
And my own thought is that the individual begins when the sperm and egg make a complete set of DNA. I also think in these terms with regard to test tube babies, and clones.[/quote]
My contention is, So What!
If the argument is that an Einstein could have been born, since only 1-2% of the population is that intelligent what are the odds? But so what if any human is aborted. What makes humans more important than any other living thing? Nature on Earth, (plants, the oceans, various wildlife and more) is being destroyed everyday, how many people care about that?
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If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times, does he become disoriented?
George Carlin
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I'd do that at home with the one I live with to see what happens but he's too confussed already.
Snake
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2002 : 10:06:53 [Permalink]
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[quote]Trish, I'm not attacking or calling names, so I apologize if it came across that way.
People will continue to have abortions, no matter what, as sometimes kids can be an unnecessary burden.
And my own thought is that the individual begins when the sperm and egg make a complete set of DNA. I also think in these terms with regard to test tube babies, and clones.
It seems to me that I remember every fuckin thing I know. (Tragically Hip)[/quote]
TD's link cleared things up a bit. A bit of a problem a while back with an actual case of the wrong type of ad hominem. Anyway, wasn't at you Badger. Sorry for the mix up.
If that's what your saying with regards to conecption, then every woman should be tested every month to see if she's pregnant at which time then if she does any of the harmful things to her body that can cause a miscarriage she should be prosecuted. Birth certificates, rights and benefits should begine from the moment of conception. Additionally, the same argument can be taken further to the concept of no contraceptive uses.
As for China, they do have a problem with over population from the old concept of large families in their tradition. They do struggle with over population and population control, they could literally breed themselves into an expansionist mode with no where to go. Then what, WWIII? Think of the number of people in China today, think of each couple having 3 to 4 kids in China the population grows exponentially. Granted, the forced abortion maybe isn't the best solution, but what is? Are people far sighted enough to realize the danger they pose to themselves and their future generations? Are we too transient a species to understand that, we control our environment, therefore we can manipulate it into supporting larger and larger populations, then we run out of room. Where's the self regulation for a species like us? Not over populating and making more demand than there is supply?
It's just this mental attidute that will be required if people can get off their asses and start colonizing other planet like bodies in our system.
(OK, sorry just finished Manifold: Space, this is covered in most hard science fiction.) But it could become reality. It could become a reality where we have to limit ourselves even in the US, if society as a whole is not careful and does not think beyond the immediate.
But, another problem, if a woman is forced to carry a child to term, instead of opting for an abortion, who then takes responsibility for that infant? Is it the mother's responsibility when she could have, under other circumstances not had the child, or is it the responsibility of the society that forced her into having the child against her will? Who will take care of children that are not wanted? Do see? You are forcing your ideal of what should be on someone who has no effect on you unless you force your ideal on her. The child becomes a burden upon the state, regardless of it's future potential in pay off, the child is a burden. You would have to pay care-givers, house, feed, clothe, provide medical, optical, dental, an education, same opportunity for a higher education and on. The cost is burdensome to society as a whole. What if the child requires medical care for the rest of its natural life? What then, do you continue to pay for that child? I just see too many problems inherent in the concept.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
<i>No Sense of Obligation</i> by Matt Young |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 19:16:11 [Permalink]
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Badger has a point. You can't make abortions illegal, you can only make them dangerous.
But how can you view a small cluster of cells with DNA as an individual?
Isn't an individual more than flesh and bones. Or DNA?
Trish also makes an interesting argument. If a woman is forced to carry a child to terms, and what should happen to the infant. Most anti-abortionists tell the woman to give the child away for abortion. I think that's reducing a woman to a breeding-machine, and why don't the childless couples adopt a child out of starvation and poverty in the third world countries?
But what if there are no one to adopt? Aside from spending 10 months being pregnant, the woman/couple have now been coerced to use up to 20 years of their lives to raise and feed the child.
A woman is an individual, too. She is not a breeding-machine for society. I'm always reminded of Nazi Germany and the “Kirche, Kinder, Küche” (church, children, kitchen) for women, when I hear people advocating against abortions.
The world is not really overpopulated. The goods are just VERY poorly distributed. But overpopulation is coming fast. Does anyone know how the anti-abortionists answer to that one?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2002 : 00:31:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
The world is not really overpopulated. The goods are just VERY poorly distributed. But overpopulation is coming fast. Does anyone know how the anti-abortionists answer to that one?
Oh give me a break! Not over populated my ass. Are we going to be technical about it?
If someone likes living in New York all squished together, fine, or are YOU going to be the one to volunteer to move to the desert or the top of a cold lonely mountian to even out where all the people that the Earth can hold should be?
I've lived in Los Angeles for good lot of years and have seen the trafic get worse the noise the pollution (no matter what officals say, it's here and it's bad). I've been to Bangkok over the years and seen it get worse there too. I've heard that Mexico City is so bad one can't breath. I think it must be the same in a lot of major cities of the world so if anyone thinks that's the way they want to live, like 'Soylent Green', fine. Go ahead and insist the Earth is not overcrowded. IMO it's overpopulated by MY definition.
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If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times, does he become disoriented?
George Carlin
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I'd do that at home with the one I live with to see what happens but he's too confussed already.
Snake
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2002 : 19:39:32 [Permalink]
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Snake> I have a hard time seeing what your behind has to do with anything.
And I do think it's an important point do get technical about it. About the distribution of goods, about poverty and how that effects the amount of children any family has.
But if that's too technical for you, maybe you should take a break ;)
You ever wondered why people congregate in noisy, polluted, smog-covered cities like L.A, Bangkok or Mexico City?
Yes, if you look at the world the way it is right now, with the way things are distributed then it is overpopulated. But you didn't even answer my real question. No matter our different definitions of overpopulation I was actually.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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