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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
 Posted - 03/23/2002 : 20:47:50
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There's a thread asking who cares about those freedoms. I want to know what it really is.
There's a lot of talk about freedom and liberty in the press and on TV as well as here.
I'm pretty sure it depends on who's being asked, but I wonder if there's a consensus on the subject.
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"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 22:02:58 [Permalink]
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The ability to do whatever you want as long as you don't harm another.
This is the quick and dirty, soundbite-ish answer. It's really not that simple though, because as soon as you mention this, you get "no one lives in a vacuum" arguments, etc.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 17:52:17 [Permalink]
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These freedoms also consist of an understanding of the responsibilities of each individual to their town, city, state, country, etc. And responsibilities to each other. I may be guaranteed the right to 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' but the caveat is understood that my right to these may not impinge upon anothers right to the same. Also, that I as a person guaranteed these basic rights (liberties if you will) have a responsibility to uphold and defend those rights not only for myself but for those around me, especially if it is a person with whom I don't agree. Sadly, this seems to be lost on the vast majority.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
<i>No Sense of Obligation</i> by Matt Young |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 21:23:14 [Permalink]
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"Individual Freedom" is one of those catchy and profound-sounding bits that's undeniably a positive thing (whatever it is) yet it's vague enough to allow for many interpretations. Politicians lovem' along with positive-sounding but meaningless phrases (e.g. "We must look forward to the future!"... well, we can't look back at it.) Combine the mentioned, generally accepted notion "as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else" with "nobody lives in a vacuum" and it raises so many questions that it seems hard to speak meaningfully of it without getting fairly specific, and contradictions emerge. Simple example: we have motorcycle helmet laws to keep us from injuring our brains and costing society in lost productivity and medical care costs (I'd personally wear one, even if I had the option not to.) Yet professional boxing- where the objective is to induce a concussion- is legal and celebrated, resulting in chronic brain injury... for every wealthy champion, thousands suffer brain damage and walk away broke. Is public entertainment value making the activity marketable necessary before it's OK to endure such risks? "Individual Freedom" is a hard thing for me to comprehend in a general sense, and even the specific examples can get complicated.
Ron White |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 21:49:51 [Permalink]
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I think the definition of 'Individual Freedom' depends paradoxyly mostly no the society. It has almost nothing to do with 'as long as you don't harm anyone else', and mostly hangs on 'as long as you don't do anything that the rest does not like'.
You don't have Individul Freedom to do a lot of things that would not harm anybody else, and not even the staunchest defenders of Individual Freedom would suggest to include some of these things.
You are not free to die when you want. You are not free to take drugs. You are not free to have sex with every sort of consenting partner you might want. You are not free to wear what, if any, clothes you want.
'Individual Freedom' is being free to do what you want provided it is cocially acceptable to some degree. It is not very well defined and constantly in flux.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 09:16:33 [Permalink]
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[quote]You are not free to die when you want. You are not free to take drugs. You are not free to have sex with every sort of consenting partner you might want. You are not free to wear what, if any, clothes you want. [/quote]
Lars some people shouldn't be allowed to wander around without clothes. However, I would never deny an individual that right no matter my opinion, were it legal in this society.
You do have some valid points there, points that are under some contention. The right to die and so on. However, with the sex that opens a whole new can of worms.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
<i>No Sense of Obligation</i> by Matt Young |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 18:58:24 [Permalink]
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Interesting. There seems to be some kind of consensus (do correct me if I'm wrong) that it's an odd undefined mix of rights and responsibilities.
Lars_H though has an interesting point. Do what you want as long as it is culturally acceptable. I mean, Western society does not stone women for having sex outside marriage. However abortion is still illegal in Ireland, even if a girl gets raped! (Man, that can really get my blood boiling).
We're not allowed to die when we want. Suicide is illegal, at least here in Denmark. Doctors who help old sick people dying gets prosecuted.
I don't know about the clothes-wearing. I've been brought up with a strange relationship to nudity, to put it diplomatically
“The pursuit of happiness” –phrase blows my mind. If everybody became a millionaire, who'd do the hard, boring jobs? I'm not free to travel to Hawaii tomorrow, because I simply don't make that kind of money.
I'm free to chose between five different kinds of cola in my grocery-store, but not to be heard in parliament.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 04:21:24 [Permalink]
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Trish...Spoken like a true social Libertarian after my own heart. However, I think that I will have to take it one step further, or maybe twenty steps.
"Individual freedoms," for lack of a better word, are based on two things. 1)Will our actions harm another? 2)Will our actions harm or otherwise deprive another of their property? Any further qualifications, other than, perhaps, degree of harm, are moral considerations, and, (this is where I expect the flack), moral considerations have no place in law. Morals change with the weather, or with the newest darling of the evangelicals.
Is it wrong for someone to take their life? In my opinion, it may be stupid, and even ethically wrong, but not criminal. That person's life belongs to no one else. And, before someone tells me it harms loved ones - So? We cannot legislate feelings, unless there is a deliberate campaign to emotionally harm another. Openning this can of worms sets precedent for all sorts of fallacious and erroneous claims.
Is it a person's "individual freedom" to go grocery shopping in the buff? Why not? If anyone believes that constant exposure to human flesh turns a person into a rapist and a serial killer, I think they had better check on the reasons real rapists and serial killers commit their crimes. Maybe, they should visit a naturist camp, and see how few people are tittilated by long term exposure to the human body.
Aren't we free to love anyone we want despite, or because of gender or skin color? What business is it of anyone else who we love?
If my neighbor wants to smoke a joint after work, in the privacy of his own home, why should I care, as long as he doesn't operate heavy equipment, or work beside me while under the influence. As a matter of fact, I can point to many more reasons for legalizing drugs, than I can find reasons to criminalizing them.
This aversion we have to the human body, and sexual acts is based solely on religious training. Most other 'victimless crimes' are based on our love of mothering our peers, and a misguided attempt to show how much we care. That includes safety belts and motorcycle helmets, and I do wear my safety belt and my helmet. Saying this personal choice harms us all by causing insurance rates to climb, and other such nonsense is just another can of worms. Education always works better than petty fines, and threats with no bite. Increasing the punishment becomes excessive, especially since no one is victimized, except perhaps for an abstract concept of social responsibility, and the tired old bitch about paying for someone else's problems.
Well, that's my opinion, for what it's worth...
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 04:28:33 [Permalink]
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If anyone is interested, here is a link to one of the best reads I've found on the net. This is an online book which is quick and easy to read. Plus, I found myself agreeing with almost every word Mr. McWilliams presented, and I still wanted to read on. I am usually more interested in reading differing opinions.
http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/aint/toc.htm
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2002 : 10:44:23 [Permalink]
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Ah, with regards to sex, I was referring to the prevalance of STDs. There is some wisdom in not having sex with whomever, whenever. However, as for sex, sex is a private matter and as such should be kept so. I don't think I'd like to take my kid to a park where she'll be exposed to that at what I might consider too young an age. I would not choose to support 'blue-light' laws either.
Oh and BTW, I'm an Independant or Non-affiliated voter.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
<i>No Sense of Obligation</i> by Matt Young
Edited by - Trish on 03/29/2002 10:45:07 |
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