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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2001 : 08:12:28
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It is appropriate, I suppose, that the most sincere of all conspira-wackies, the late Tim McVeigh, ended his career with what appears to be a vulgar fraud. To the surprise of witnesses, McVeigh did not make a final statement from the death chamber. Instead he provided a written "Final Statement of Tim McVeigh" for distribution to the media. The statement was, in fact, a word for word quote from the famous 19th century poem "Invictus" by William Ernest Henley (1849-1903). http://illium.org/brock/invict.html
McVeigh did not include either the author's name or the title nor did he indicate in any way that this was not an original composition on his part. He signed his own name to it and included today's date. Indeed, some of the media witnesses briefly seemed to believe that it was McVeigh's own work. The media will make an effort to get a correct attribution, but inevitably many will see Mcveigh's version, miss the true source, and come away believing that this great (if rather grim) poem is the work of a mass murderer.
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 20:23:42 [Permalink]
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I do not like the death penalty. It has an opposite effect from that intended. In a way, we were copying Tim McVeigh's act of revenge by putting him to death. I think it would have been a much greater punishment to lock him up in solitary for the rest of his life and let him contemplate contemplation until he dies. We do not want to create martyrs to be copied by other would-be martyrs seeking irrationally-created revenge against society (us). Somehow, the chain of revenge needs to be stopped. Locking him up securely in a maximum security prison would have been punishment to the max and less likely to breed vengeance.
I live in a state which does not have the death penalty. There are no potential martyrs sitting in on Death Row in our prisons here.
Some loonies are bound to come along to seek revenge for Tim McVeigh and society has given them the motivation. It is likely to continue on, ad infinitum, if somebody does not stop the cycle. Remember that Timothy McVeigh was getting revenge for his irrationally perceived wrongs by the Feds. Putting him to death is bound to have future consequences which were not planned.
The jerk needs to be forgotten. I fear for the consequences.
ljbrs
Edited by - ljbrs on 06/11/2001 20:33:06 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 20:49:13 [Permalink]
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On second thought, if Timothy McVeigh had been locked up instead of executed, he might have been able, later on, to escape and do some other equally horrible thing. Executing him prevents that from recurring.
ljbrs
Sometimes it takes a little time to know better...
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 20:57:56 [Permalink]
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Piltdown:
Interesting! I didn't know that McVeigh pretended to be the author of the poem. Most of the media were already evaluating this poem and its author late last week when it was looking like a possible last testament by this deranged fruitloop. Which, of course, leads to another revolting development that I see coming in this saga:
Hold on to your hats and glasses, folks, because agnostics and other non-believers/freethinkers will now (again) be the demons of the ages. There was an analysis today on CNN of this poem by a professor (who also happens to be a nun)talking about how the poem alludes to a secular humanist, Darwinistic stoicism fueled by science.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/06/11/mcveigh.poem.cnna/
Little Timmy, our now-departed conspira-whackie mass murderer, apparently was an agnostic who decided to leave his afterlife fate to the whims of whatever. Now, of course, his actions and beliefs (or lack thereof) will no doubt be taken up by our good buddies on the religious right as a clarion call for why we need all "good Americans" (not including you atheistic, humanistic evolution-believing scum) to goose-step in time to "Onward Christian Soldiers". Brrr! I'll take bets with anyone on when the first pulpit pundit speaks out on this "connection" (my bet is by tomorrow at the latest). I also wouldn't be surprised if our anointed spiritual leader, er, AG Ashcroft got the words out first.
One more thought on the legacy left by McVeigh...There were comments and reactions from a variety of "people in the street" about his impending (and now complete) execution. Believe it or not, there was one cretin (can't find the link right now) who said we owed a huge debt of gratitude to McVeigh for showing us the corruption and treachery of our federal government. This insensitive little Nazi went on to dismiss the killings as unfortunate but "probably necessary in order to get at the truth". Unbelievable!
By the way, to the lurkers and others on this board, I am not an uncritical apologist for the government of the United States; I, too, would like to see more accountability for the actions of federal agents and less erosion of our Bill of Rights. However, to justify the killing of 168 innocent people because it may shine a light on the "truth" is completely vile and immoral.
I also don't care to debate the death penalty. I have doubts about its application in many cases, if not most, particularly in light of recent pro bono cases that found several death-row inmates innocent. However, I personally feel no remorse or collective guilt for our society's decision to feed McVeigh his breakfast cocktail of sodium pentothal, pancuronium bromide, and potassium chloride. IMHO, the ultimate retribution was completely appropriate in this case.
Sorry for the long post.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 21:10:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'll take bets with anyone on when the first pulpit pundit speaks out on this "connection" (my bet is by tomorrow at the latest).
Put me down for someone speaking out by 9:00PM next Monday night.
BTW, what do we win, in case we happen to actually get a prediction right?
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." -Master Yoda |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 21:30:03 [Permalink]
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Aw man, there was already some doof on local talk radio laughing it up about how "Tim McVeigh was an agnostic, but he ain't no more! hyuck hyuck!"
What disgusting hypocrisy.
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 22:43:23 [Permalink]
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Gee, I heard that McVeigh had last rights performed by a catholic priest. So does that make him a repented agnostic? He was absolved of all *sin* and can know receive his reward in heaven. Sick bastard.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 22:49:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gee, I heard that McVeigh had last rights performed by a catholic priest. So does that make him a repented agnostic?
hadn't heard anything about that here [repost: just read about this on the AP wire...sounds like a spur-of-the-moment decision on his part; not something he thought about beforehand...my statement below still stands]
Canon law states, though, that (regardless of absolution) if he were not repentant (and I've seen *nothing* to indicate that he was), that it would make no difference.
Edited by - Zandermann on 06/11/2001 22:57:42 |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 22:54:20 [Permalink]
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Yeah, I just read that on CNN. That goes back to an earlier response I made on Piltdown's other McVeigh thread last night - I call it my "Murdered Hindu child" thesis. Timmy can go to heaven because he confessed and was absolved of his sins right before they gave him the ol' death cocktail. However, if one of his victims had been a Hindu or Buddhist child who had never heard of Jesus or been baptized, then that child goes straight to hell. Sicko!!
If we must have religious beliefs that dictate our actions and morals, then why not fear karmic retribution? This would make a lot more sense - Timmy would then spend the next 168 lives dying in horrible ways, with no free pass to heaven allowed.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 23:05:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
...Timmy can go to heaven because he confessed and was absolved of his sins right before they gave him the ol' death cocktail. However, if one of his victims had been a Hindu or Buddhist child who had never heard of Jesus or been baptized, then that child goes straight to hell. Sicko!!
Actually, rubysue, this is no longer church doctrine.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2001 : 23:29:12 [Permalink]
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I was raised catholic with a southern baptist father, now how screwed up do you think I am? Anyway, to my point here, I was always taught that anyone who receives absolution of his sins gets one free ticket into heaven.
As for what they put as his occupation on his death certificate:soldier. That's what trully pisses me off! He's a cowardly killer plain and simple.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 18:12:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
As for what they put as his occupation on his death certificate:soldier. That's what trully pisses me off! He's a cowardly killer plain and simple.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
That is a major slap in the face to every person who has ever worn a uniform. It's a slap to their families, who have endured long separations, anguishing worry, repeated moves, and still stood by their military member. It's a slap to every commander who's every had to visit a home with the words "Mr./Mrs. Jones, I'm afraid I have some very sad news for you.
Soldier, my ass! Did the military ever yank this jerk's medals?
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 19:56:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Did the military ever yank this jerk's medals?
A better question would be: Did the jackass, who is now burning in the fiery depths of hell, ever get any medals?
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." -Master Yoda |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 20:31:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Did the military ever yank this jerk's medals?
A better question would be: Did the jackass, who is now burning in the fiery depths of hell, ever get any medals?
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." -Master Yoda
There's pictures of him in DCU's. He was in the desert. He got medals. Heck, I got medals and didn't get over there until 1999. If he was there for the actual war, he got medals. He got more than I did, and I didn't run out and kill 168 people. Also (although this means little), the news media has referred to him as a decorated war veteran. I want everything he ever received wiped from his records, I don't care if it's a good conduct citation (worthless) or M-16 expert medal (good for bragging rights only, got one myself). The man was a total and utter disgrace. The fact that he would even posthumously be able to keep any of the same awards that decorate my dress blues is sickening.
Pant, pant.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2001 : 22:10:23 [Permalink]
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From Nightline last night, I understand that very few (if any) of the friends and relativies of the "murdered" got "closure" because of Timothy McVeigh's death. Now, we have the loonies who will make a martyr of him and it could start all over again as it did with Timothy McVeigh and friends. Putting him away permanently would make it possible for people to forget about him. I think that the best way to prevent repeats is to make the perpetrators disappear into the prison system to carry out their sentence in full and alone and away from the press, et al.
Now, I guess he already is a Messiah with jerks. What human monster is going to take his place?
ljbrs
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2001 : 07:55:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Putting him away permanently would make it possible for people to forget about him. I think that the best way to prevent repeats is to make the perpetrators disappear into the prison system to carry out their sentence in full and alone and away from the press, et al.
What about the novel(s) that he most likely would have written while there (or at least letters and diatribes)? I can see it now, a bunch of terrorist kooks running around waving the "Tim McVeigh Bible". At least, this is one argument I've heard against keeping him alive and in prison.
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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