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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2002 : 19:20:34
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Poll Question:
Why do some men use (or threaten) physical force in order to coerce women into having sex?
Edited by - tergiversant on 03/30/2002 19:29:59
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Poll Status:
Locked »» |
Total Votes: 0 counted »» |
Last Vote:
never |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2002 : 19:26:58 [Permalink]
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I keep thinking that the correct answer to this question the way it is phrased is:
Because the women won't allow him to unless the force is threatened or used.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 19:31:30 [Permalink]
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Is that better?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 19:43:13 [Permalink]
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Because some women strongly object and might run away or simply refuse otherwise.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 19:45:44 [Permalink]
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No nevermind, that is better.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 21:05:05 [Permalink]
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This is something I have never been able to understand.
I mean, if one partner is unwilling, then, it seems to me, that there would be little joy in it for the other.
I don't think sex is the primary goal of rape. I think it is domination over a woman that the rapist would otherwise never have. In martial rape, it is still pretty much the same thing.
f
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 21:07:13 [Permalink]
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An important related question would be what scientific means might be used to answer the topic question.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 21:09:37 [Permalink]
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Check the topic about torture in the forum Day of Terror 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 21:12:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
I mean, if one partner is unwilling, then, it seems to me, that there would be little joy in it for the other.
Are you saying that the rapist mentality is sufficiently close to your own to draw conclusions about it therefrom?
Also, if there was little sexual satisfaction invovled, then one would not expect rapists to reach climax.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 22:41:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
@tomic':
Because some women strongly object and might run away or simply refuse otherwise.
Actually that is not always the case.
Not all rapist pare because they could not get any otherwise. Infact many cases of rape have only little to do with sex at all.
It is quite often caused by rather complex mechanisms that only get connected with sex, because in human behavior everything is connected with sex in some way.
quote:
filthy
This is something I have never been able to understand.
I mean, if one partner is unwilling, then, it seems to me, that there would be little joy in it for the other.
I don't think sex is the primary goal of rape. I think it is domination over a woman that the rapist would otherwise never have. In martial rape, it is still pretty much the same thing.
Joy does not always come into it. Dominace is only a part of it, too in my opinion.
quote:
tergiversant
An important related question would be what scientific means might be used to answer the topic question.
You should be careful when introducing real science and objective skepticism into such an enmotion laden topic. People might not want to hear the truce about what causes rape.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 23:20:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
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@tomic':
Because some women strongly object and might run away or simply refuse otherwise.
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Actually that is not always the case.
Not all rapist pare because they could not get any otherwise. Infact many cases of rape have only little to do with sex at all.
I understand that many rapes have little to do with sex but I am guessing that these are serial rapists and not your run of the mill date rape kind of thing.
But I did say the woman might run away. I don't know what you mean about that first part in relation to my sentence.
But then in another rape thread we went over and over about the cause and it seems that there are a good number of people that cannot accept that rape ever has to do with sex. I am just not one of those yet concede that sex often is not the goal at all but I do firmly believe that the vast majority are about only sex. But this is a very difficult thing for either side the quantify.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2002 : 23:39:43 [Permalink]
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Ter:
quote:
Are you saying that the rapist mentality is sufficiently close to your own to draw conclusions about it therefrom?
I'd say that it is sufficiantly different. Not to butt in, but I can see how one might use oneself as a model of normal sexuality, and judge using that model.
quote:
An important related question would be what scientific means might be used to answer the topic question.
Indeed! What a pity that gender politics will enter the equation and spoil things.
@tomic
quote:
Because some women strongly object and might run away or simply refuse otherwise.
I think that is a bit simplistic. Firstoff, if rape were purely about normal sexual gratification, why not hire a prostitute? One does not risk death that way.
Furthermore, since most adult humans seek sex, if rape were simply about restraining the 'partner', we would expect a much greater incidence than the 32.0 per 100,000 in the US in 2000, no? [url=http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm]source[/url]
I think this is a rather complex issue, but I do not think that normal* sex is much of an issue, considering that the potential consequences of rape are far worse than any potential consequences of hiring a professional.
While rape is common amoung the common chimpanzees, it is unknown amoung the bonobos. [url=http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html]source, and 'Shadows of Distant Ancestors'[/url]
So, I don't know how much use the study of other apes will be. As for the expression of dominence, it would seem to be present in many normal if uncommon sexual practices, so I do not think this is an adequete explanation by itself.
I think the lack of consent must be an important part of the puzzle. (Okay, stupid comment.)
*Ahem. *Xev grins impishly* Sex involving mutual gratification. Nothing more or less.
Cthulhu loves you. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2002 : 00:01:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
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Because some women strongly object and might run away or simply refuse otherwise.
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I think that is a bit simplistic. Firstoff, if rape were purely about normal sexual gratification, why not hire a prostitute? One does not risk death that way.
Xev, you did not see how the question was first phrased. That is why I posted that response. It originally was something like: Why would a rapist use force and then the answers you now see. I think my answer is a good one for that question.
As for your statistics...do they include date rape? I think the frequency of that is much, much greater than 32 per 100,000. I am thinking that statistic refers to a very narrow definition of rape. I mean what is forcible rape? Is this implying that there is consentual rape?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2002 : 00:20:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Xev, you did not see how the question was first phrased. That is why I posted that response. It originally was something like: Why would a rapist use force and then the answers you now see. I think my answer is a good one for that question.
Ooops. I did not see that. Sorry.
quote:
As for your statistics...do they include date rape? I think the frequency of that is much, much greater than 32 per 100,000.
Hmm, I am not sure I think there is a real difference between being raped by a stranger vs. being raped by a date. I wonder if the personal dynamics are different?
How is date rape different than rape?
Of course, reporting is key. You are probably right that date rape is reported less...but I have no statistical proof of this.
quote:
I am thinking that statistic refers to a very narrow definition of rape. I mean what is forcible rape? Is this implying that there is consentual rape?
Sorry. It is the first thing I had bookmarked. I think they mean forcible as opposed to merely non-consensual sex, i.e drugging the victim, or statutory rape, which is another kettle of fish altogether.
I think that that's what Ter was trying to get at with his use of the term 'forcible rape'
Cthulhu loves you.
Edited by - Xev on 03/31/2002 00:23:18 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2002 : 01:00:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hmm, I am not sure I think there is a real difference between being raped by a stranger vs. being raped by a date. I wonder if the personal dynamics are different?
How is date rape different than rape?
Of course, reporting is key. You are probably right that date rape is reported less...but I have no statistical proof of this.
I am thinking that date rape is only different in that you know the person and that, perhaps, the motivationand circumstances may be different than that of a serial rapist.
And yes reporting is so very important. Going back a few years the rape rate is extremely lower. But I also know that things like date rape were probably hardly ever reported. Ditto for rape in general.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2002 : 02:10:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am thinking that date rape is only different in that you know the person and that, perhaps, the motivationand circumstances may be different than that of a serial rapist.
It makes sense that motivation would be different, since the modus operendi is different.
The more I think about this, the more I think tergiversant has a good point.
How does a scientist (or a skeptic) go about evaluating an emotional issue with so much uncertainty involved?
I mean, consider: if the rate at which rape is reported increasing, is this because more women are being raped or because more women are willing to report? I would say the latter, simply because I see the evidence of the 'just say no' campaign all around while I don't see any reason for violence to sharply increase.
Sorry, I should start a new thread about this.
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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