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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2002 : 00:42:31 [Permalink]
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Well, I have to say that if Tergiversant and Xev were handing these proposals in as assignments for my research methods class, Xev would get the higher score.  Probably both factors are involved. The problem is that the study you need is very hard to do and probably unethical to do.
What you need is an unambiguous set of predictions that show a critical difference between the two theories. That is, you must be able to observe a result that is only possible if one or the other is true if you want to reject one of the theories (though, as Xev pointed out, it is unlikely that you can reject either).
Suppose as a rapist, I get aroused and penetrate and ejaculate.
ummmm....
Oh, sorry, I got distracted for a moment  
Oh, yes... how would you know the difference between my being aroused by the thought of having sex with my unwilling "patner" and the possibility that I find dominance of another sexually arousing and the sex act is merely the release of that arousal state. Why would pain and humiliating sex, leading to rejection by the one who makes reproduction possible be more adaptive than ingratiating oneself to as many baby makers as possible?"
The fact is, you would have a hard time sorting this out unless you could manipulate rape under controlled conditions. (But the look on the human subject committe's faces might be worth the proposal)
Usually, Psychologists who take strong, single positions are trying to shake things up and get people to think about an aspect of things that have been ignored. I suspect this is what Thornhill is up to in part. But things are never that simple in the real world.
This is (one of the reasons) that psychologists sound like idiots on Oprah-- because Oprah asks "Is it this or that" and they have to answer "it depends." People hate "It depends!"
By the way, some psychologists who appear on Oprah ARE idiots. 
I'm not saying this isn't worth discussing rationally, but I think one needs a good grasp of the science and its limitations in the social science arena.
(P-)>
"I don't care whether my neighbor believes in zero gods or 20 gods, I care whether my neighbor believes in democracy."
--Bill Moyers
Edited by - Hook on 04/17/2002 00:48:16 |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2002 : 00:42:35 [Permalink]
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Ter:
quote:
I never mentioned any conscious desire to impregnate. Nor would I think it relevant in this context. Sexual desires are generally directed at "sexy" people, that is, people that are virile or fertile. This is not a matter of conscious choice, but of primal desire.
Okay. But an unconscious, evolutionary desire...hmm.
quote:
Beware sampling bias, though.
As always.
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Does Cthulhu do requests?
Oh yeah.
Another thought: rape is unfortunatly common during war. Could there be a connection?
Yet another thought: What is the connextion, if any, between rape and pedophilia? How psychologically simular are the rapist and the pedophile?
Hook:
quote:
Probably both factors are involved. The problem is that the study you need is very hard to do and probably unethical to do.
I really don't see unethical. We will, unfortunatly, have a sample group for some time.
Unless Great Cthulhu awakens soon..(shaddup about Cthulhu already!)
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Oh, yes... how would you know the difference between my being aroused by the thought of having sex with my unwilling "patner" and the possibility that I find dominance of another sexually arousing and the sex act is merely the release of that arousal state. Why would pain and humiliating sex, leading to rejection by the one who makes reproduction possible be more adaptive than ingratiating oneself to as many baby makers as possible?"
Good point.
There are those who seek out painful and humiliating sex without harming non-consenting partners, no?
- Cthulhu Saves! -
As for the 'causes' of rape, I fear that they may be as complex as the 'causes' of any other crime.
Oh yes, and in a lighter mood - here is a picture of what happens when nasty people cancel funding - Cthulhu gets mad:
http://home.earthlink.net/~presnell/cthulhu.gif
Edited by - Xev on 04/17/2002 00:57:30 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2002 : 05:54:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oh, yes... how would you know the difference between my being aroused by the thought of having sex with my unwilling "patner" and the possibility that I find dominance of another sexually arousing and the sex act is merely the release of that arousal state.
One possible way would be to look at what kind of pornography the rapist keeps (if any). I'm guessing that we would find that a great many rapists, especially serial ones, have quite a collection. The nature of the porn would give a pretty good indication of what types of things the person finds arousing.
Just a thought...
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2002 : 12:05:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
One possible way would be to look at what kind of pornography the rapist keeps (if any). I'm guessing that we would find that a great many rapists, especially serial ones, have quite a collection. The nature of the porn would give a pretty good indication of what types of things the person finds arousing.
Excellent suggestion, Tokyodreamer!
Now, how shall we pay for such a study? Should I persist in my plans for world domination, or does somone want to embezzle?
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 07:25:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oh, yes... how would you know the difference between my being aroused by the thought of having sex with my unwilling "partner" and the possibility that I find dominance of another sexually arousing and the sex act is merely the release of that arousal state.
The “traditional” view of rape is that men use dominance as a means to sexual satisfaction. The “feminist conceptualization” of rape has it the other way around, claiming that men are using sex as a means to achieve dominance and violence.
Now, if someone goes into the act motivated equally by sex and dominance, then both theories are equally right (and equally wrong) in describing their motives.
The question at hand, though, is which theory more accurately describes most rapists. More precisely, we would like to know what proportion of rapists may be described by one theory or the other with some given degree of accuracy.
As to research methodologies, I suspect that Hook's research methods class is likely not taught by a sociobiologist or indeed any sort of evolutionary biologist. If it were, they would have a bit more respect for statistical investigations into victimization demographics and the insight that such research has already yielded for the psychological community (e.g. stepfathers are the highest risk group for incest and molestation).
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What you need is an unambiguous set of predictions that show a critical difference between the two theories.
I have already given one. If rapes are committed for the sake of sex, then we would expect most victims to be sexy, that is, highly fertile. If rapes are committed for the sake of dominance, then we would expect most victims to be weak. Since the strongest females are generally the most fertile (between puberty and menopause) this hypothesis test alone should do the trick. All we need now is data.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 08:47:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have already given one. If rapes are committed for the sake of sex, then we would expect most victims to be sexy, that is, highly fertile. If rapes are committed for the sake of dominance, then we would expect most victims to be weak. Since the strongest females are generally the most fertile (between puberty and menopause) this hypothesis test alone should do the trick. All we need now is data.
What if they choose strong victims because they enjoy the challange of dominationg one who represents a threat?
Still more variables.
- Cthulhu Saves! -
Edited by - Xev on 04/25/2002 08:48:49 |
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