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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2002 : 19:08:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
While rape is common amoung the common chimpanzees, it is unknown amoung the bonobos. (http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html)
A fascinating insight. I wonder if humans more closely resemble bonobos or chimps in their primal sexuality. Given the widespread instances of male dominance in various human societies, I would suppose chimps.
Edited by - tergiversant on 04/03/2002 19:11:04 |
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2002 : 08:34:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Smarm and fast talking instead of physical force doesn't make it any the less rape.
Whaa? Sweet-talking a person into bed is rape? On what logic do you base that?
That goes against the legal definition, which is "Sex obtained through the use of force or the fear of force with the implied lack of consent" and the definition in my psych text "An act of violence where sexual relations are forced upon another"
Well, it's actually pretty hard to come up with a legal definition of rape as both legal definitions and evidentiary burden of proof vary from state to state. There are some states that include provisions that make consent the central issue. However, I was not stating a legal opinion (I'm not a legal scholar), I was stating a strong opinion, derived from being involved with college campuses and seeing the situation which resembles this picture drawn by the CDC.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/rape.htm
quote:
To define rape that way would easily result in ruining a person's life.
Simply because a partner just couldn't make up his/her mind and consented when s/he didn't really want to hardly constitutes rape.
If he or she consented, fine. Regret does not constitute rape. I just don't think the majority of these cases are about regret.
quote:
Edited for emotionalism.
It is certainly an emotional issue. I hope, however, that we can have disagreement on emotional issues without either of us taking it personally. I have come to respect many of your insights and comments on this board.
(P-)>
"I don't care whether my neighbor believes in zero gods or 20 gods, I care whether my neighbor believes in democracy."
--Bill Moyers
Edited by - Hook on 04/05/2002 08:36:42 |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2002 : 11:19:37 [Permalink]
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Hook:
quote:
I was stating a strong opinion, derived from being involved with college campuses and seeing the situation which resembles this picture drawn by the CDC.
Okay, fair enough. How do you define rape, and what do you base your definition on?
quote:
If he or she consented, fine. Regret does not constitute rape. I just don't think the majority of these cases are about regret.
You may have a point. However, I do not find "Well, I did not realize that I was raped until I told Sherri, Terri, Toni and the gang" very convincing.
Nor do I find "Well I didn't really want to sleep with him, but I did not say anything or protest" very convincing.
P.S: Replying with half my post in caps would be hysteria from another. From me, it is emotionalism. 
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2002 : 13:56:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Okay, fair enough. How do you define rape, and what do you base your definition on?
Personally, I define it as sex without consent. I just think folks need to take that extra step to make sure both consenting adults are consenting and I think that coecion can be much subtler than some people realize. For instance, a first generation immagrant college student from a male-dominant macho culture may, in fact, assume they have no right to refuse. I have seen this and the consequences of this. I understand this is not a legal definition, and I understand that courts require evidentiary standard and that this is a tough crime to get evidence for.
As I said, this is personal definition based on personal experience, I was not defining anything. There is also some literature that supports thse notions, but though I am a reasearch psychologist, this is not my field and I am not even drawing my ideas from that. These are my personal opinions about rape. I'm sorry I didn't take pains to distinguish that as my strong opinion made it sound like I was asserting a fact. I hate it when I do that, and it is so much easier to do on a bbs.
quote:
quote:
If he or she consented, fine. Regret does not constitute rape. I just don't think the majority of these cases are about regret.
You may have a point. However, I do not find "Well, I did not realize that I was raped until I told Sherri, Terri, Toni and the gang" very convincing.
Nor do I find "Well I didn't really want to sleep with him, but I did not say anything or protest" very convincing.
On these points, we are in 100% agreement. Really. 
quote:
P.S: Replying with half my post in caps would be hysteria from another. From me, it is emotionalism.
Me, I just go into bull-in-a-china-shop verbal mode. 
(P-)>
"I don't care whether my neighbor believes in zero gods or 20 gods, I care whether my neighbor believes in democracy."
--Bill Moyers
Edited by - Hook on 04/05/2002 13:58:12 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2002 : 14:46:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
For instance, a first generation immagrant college student from a male-dominant macho culture may, in fact, assume they have no right to refuse.
Are you saying that if you are trying to sleep with someone that feels they have no options that it is the fault of the other person? Does everyone have to explain individual rights prior to sex a la the Miranda rule???
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2002 : 15:40:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
For instance, a first generation immagrant college student from a male-dominant macho culture may, in fact, assume they have no right to refuse.
Are you saying that if you are trying to sleep with someone that feels they have no options that it is the fault of the other person? Does everyone have to explain individual rights prior to sex a la the Miranda rule???
Ummmm. No. It's an ethical point, not a legal one. And I am talking about college, not the real world. I'm just saying that people should be educated to think about the issue of consent and that your average 18-20 year old college first time away from home crowd needs a lot of education, both genders.
If this discussion is only about legal points, I will gladly step out, I have no contribution to make there.
(P-)>
"I don't care whether my neighbor believes in zero gods or 20 gods, I care whether my neighbor believes in democracy."
--Bill Moyers |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2002 : 03:37:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
If this discussion is only about legal points, I will gladly step out, I have no contribution to make there.
I hope it's not, since anyone can look up the legal definition and explain it, thus closing all conversation. Seems to me this discussion is about personal opinion.
-me. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2002 : 03:58:51 [Permalink]
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Hmmmm, I wonder, I've used all sorts of tactics, short of force, violence, threats and lies, to get an old flame, and even my wife into the sack. All of those tactics were coersive. After all, my goal was sex and my tool was coersion. Was it rape?
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2002 : 09:26:12 [Permalink]
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Tim> You might as well ask then if seduction is to be considered coercion.
Rape is sex without consent.
The example above with some women from a culture, where she might think refuting is not the option (what countries ARE we talking about???), is not really giving her consent. Legally she would have, because there is no use of physical force.
But force does not have to be physical.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2002 : 14:53:35 [Permalink]
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Isn't coercion force?
As for Hook's hypothetical, I don't think it can be ethically considered rape. As long as her partner does not realize her situation, there is no way it can be un-ethical to sleep with her. What is he supposed to do, read her mind?
*Xev grins impishly, and adds*
That's what men are supposed to do anyway.
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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Hook
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2002 : 20:43:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
What is he supposed to do, read her mind?
This argument gets raised a lot. Unfortunately, I don't fully agree with the premises. Seduction and coersion are tricky to define, unwanted sex isn't. And it doesn't require mind reading. The fact is 99% of the time it is not that hard to determine whether both people want sex, even when the guy is thinking with his dick. That is why, though the number that do may be shocking, the majority of dates do not end in rape. For some, it takes education, peer pressure and a little more sensitivity to consequences, exactly the techniques that have been used to lower drunk driving statistics.
By the way, I just last night read the other rape thread and now realize most of this debate has been covered, I probably didn't need to get in here and stir things up. Just consider me roughly in the camp with Trish, Kil and Penyprity (among others).
I think, for now, I'll leave it at that.
(P-)>
"I don't care whether my neighbor believes in zero gods or 20 gods, I care whether my neighbor believes in democracy."
--Bill Moyers |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2002 : 17:48:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
A fascinating insight. I wonder if humans more closely resemble bonobos or chimps in their primal sexuality. Given the widespread instances of male dominance in various human societies, I would suppose chimps.
Right, this has more to do with evolved Animal Behavior in relation to habitat than genetics. We are much more closely related to Bonobos than Chimps, however the Bonobos evolved in the deep forest, the Chimps in open woods and we got stuck in open forest that was replaced by grasslands. So our patriarchal behavior more closely resembles the Chimp as a survival strategy in areas frequented by big cats with few places to hide.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2002 : 20:02:42 [Permalink]
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Contra Boron, I really did not mean to open a discussion based on personal opinion, but to reopen a rational, skeptical, and most of all scientific investigation into a difficult empirical question.
I've seen this conversation many times before, online and in person. Folks often curse and spit at those who dare to be skeptical of the "mainstream" psychological view by daring to suggest that rape could be motivated by anything other than the urge to subjugate women, especially if they suggest that the sex drive might somehow be involved.
If we can somehow keep the emotional reactions to a minimum, I think there is some merit in this discussion as a strictly scientific question.
Consider it as a contest between competing hypotheses, one which posits a primary motivation of sexual desire and another which posits a primary motivation of dominance. What evidence might we expect to see if one of these two theories were true?
If the sexuality theory were correct, we would expect to see higher levels of victimization for more fertile victims. For example, we might try charting rape victimization rate by age and comparing that a graph of fertility by age. If the two graphs are similarly shaped, then we could conclude that rapists are directing their crimes primarily against those victims which offer them a greater chance of successful impregnation, thus providing support of
Thornhill's controversial theory.
OTOH, if the dominance theory (AKA feminist reconceptualization) of rape were correct, we would expect to see rapes directed primarily against the least powerful (rather than most fertile) segments of the population. Since the least fertile females (the very young and old) are also typically the least powerful, this test alone
should provide powerful evidence in favor of one theory or the other.
Moreover, if a sexuality-based (reproductively adaptive) theory of rape (ala Thornhill) were true, we might expect to see (in comparison to consensual sex-acts) relatively high rates of the following:
1. Male arousal and erection
2. Penile-vaginal penetration
3. Male orgasm
4. Impregnation
OTOH, if the dominance-based theory of rape were correct, we would expect to see relatively low rates of each of these factors, which are inherently sexual (reproductively adaptive) in nature.
These are the various hypothesis tests that I would propose in favor of an objective evaluation of the evidence. Perhaps some will contend that I have stacked the deck one way or the other. If so, feel free to critique my hypothesis tests, or better yet provide your own.
-tergiversant
"Oh, here comes an avalanche of bullshit!" - Marla Singer |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2002 : 21:52:28 [Permalink]
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Whoa whoa whoa whoa! Whoever said that both factors couldn't be involved?
I find that few human behaviors are simple. Rape could easily incorperate both the assertion of dominence and the desire to impregnate.
However, I might point out the fact that few rapes will result in impregnation, especially in this day of readily available abortion. Before abortion became widely available, a rapist ran the risk of his victim killing or abandoning the child.
Not only that, but if impregnation was the only motive, we would expect the amount of force used to be exactly that needed to restrain the victim or force consent. Is this what we see?
As for peak fertility, is not a woman most vulnerable at that time? And, (we even see this in normal sexual variations) could not part of dominance be the challange of dominating one who can fight back?
Edit to propose solution:
A study comparing police reports of rape - how much force is used in contrast to how much is 'necessary' to obtain the victim's cooperation.
A second study finding the liklihood of rape-caused pregnancys to be carried to term.
If at all possible, and to be viewed very skeptically, interviews with perpetrators regarding motives.
And finally, a interdimensional squid-dragon monster to eat anyone who injects gender politics into our studies. Ia!
- Cthulhu Saves! -
Edited by - Xev on 04/16/2002 21:59:56 |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2002 : 00:20:55 [Permalink]
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Whoa whoa whoa whoa! Whoever said that both factors couldn't be involved?
Not I, to be sure. I was trying to assess which theory is more accurate, which one better fits most of the data.
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I find that few human behaviors are simple. Rape could easily incorperate both the assertion of dominence and the desire to impregnate.
I never mentioned any conscious desire to impregnate. Nor would I think it relevant in this context. Sexual desires are generally directed at "sexy" people, that is, people that are virile or fertile. This is not a matter of conscious choice, but of primal desire.
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A study comparing police reports of rape - how much force is used in contrast to how much is 'necessary' to obtain the victim's cooperation.
Excellent idea.
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A second study finding the liklihood of rape-caused pregnancys to be carried to term.
Not an excellent idea. Strike the "carried to term" part, though, and it might lend some strong insight into the evolutionary psychology of rape.
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If at all possible, and to be viewed very skeptically, interviews with perpetrators regarding motives.
Another excellent idea. I think I have these lying about in the available literature somewhere. Beware sampling bias, though.
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And finally, a interdimensional squid-dragon monster to eat anyone who injects gender politics into our studies.
Does Cthulhu do requests?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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