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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
 Posted - 04/05/2002 : 16:47:57
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Poll Question:
I didn't find a discussion on this topic since I joined. So here.
What is your opinion on death-penalty?
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Poll Status:
Locked »» |
Total Votes: 0 counted »» |
Last Vote:
never |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
 Posted - 04/05/2002 : 20:50:08 [Permalink]
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Well, lets get the ball rolling. I see 11 votes but no comments.
I voted yes to the death penalty. Why? First, it decreases the chances of that person re-offending. Second, prisons are already budget strapped and over crowded thus it frees up resources. Third, there is a minimal deterrent effect.
I know mistakes are made, and the wrong guy can get snuffed. But more often than not, it's the right guy getting it.
Please note that the death penalty often happens, without official channels being followed. The untimely demise of Jeffrey Dhalmer, at the end of a broomstick by a fellow prisoner is a perfect example. The fact that they don't house pedophiles with other criminals for the same reason is another example.
Having harshly said all the above, I put forth the caveat "Where warranted". Obvious, violent, horrific (subjective word I know), pre-meditated meet my definition. Case by case should be the review.
And yes, I'd be willing to pull the trigger, drop the axe, yank the switch, etc. "where warranted". I'm not about to ask someone to do something I wouldn't do, especially something so horrific as taking a life.
I've been called worse things by better people. (Pierre E. Trudeau) |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2002 : 00:29:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, lets get the ball rolling. I see 11 votes but no comments.
The reason I'm not going to comment or state my views and reason for my vote is because this subject has been talked to death, pardon the pun. So I think it's a waste of time to keep writing about it.
Everyone said it couldn't be done. So no one tried. Execpt one little old man who lived in a cave on the other side of the world. He hadn't heard it couldn't be done. So he tried it. He couldn't do it either.
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2002 : 00:48:44 [Permalink]
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I can't argue with the re-offending argument.
The other arguments in favor of death penalty I can argue with.
Exection in the style that are committed in the US are regularly more expensive then lifetime imprisonment would be.
The detterimental factor is not measurable. The selective way that the death penalty is enforced could have something to do with it.
Execution where warranted sounds good, but when children and mentally disabled are regularly excecuted one has to wonder about the different defintions of 'warranted' that are used.
In a perfect world the death penalty could be a tool used for the good of society, but then again in a perfect world we would not need it. The way it is implemented now in the US for example does not help anyone.
There are a lot of emetions involved in those cases that do not leave enough room for rational argument. Revenge and Reelection often play a more important role then justice.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2002 : 01:22:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
There are a lot of emetions involved in those cases that do not leave enough room for rational argument. Revenge and Reelection often play a more important role then justice.
You are so right!
It's really true lawyers don't want intelligent people on juries. IMO people don't understand evidence and vote on emotions rather than facts. They are made to be confused by 'junk science' instead of being logicial.
Lady Justice has a blindfold on for a reason.
And guess what, lol, next week I've got to go to jury duty. I haven't gotten on a trial for the last several times I've gone, after they interview me I'm never chosen...must be something I say.
Everyone said it couldn't be done. So no one tried. Execpt one little old man who lived in a cave on the other side of the world. He hadn't heard it couldn't be done. So he tried it. He couldn't do it either.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2002 : 06:00:25 [Permalink]
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What is the science in this? Where is the science that shows that killing people does anything but teach people that killing people is a way to solve problems?
I think it's been shown that people are in prison because they're poor and/or a member of a minority group and not because of the amount of damage that they did to society.
It's also been shown that the justice system is corrupt. For one example, look at the number of police officers that have lied and planted evidence and we know about the prosecutors who are pressured to solve cases rather than find the truth. It's been shown that the prosecution uses unreliable felons as eyewitnesses in some cases. Snake already talked about how easy it is to get "expert" sounding witnesses.
Eyewitness testimony itself is an unreliable way to find out the truth.
It never made sense to me to use juries in the first place. What do juries know about anything?
What is the science in all of this?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2002 : 20:21:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Exection in the style that are committed in the US are regularly more expensive then lifetime imprisonment would be.
I've always thought this was the oddest statistic, but never bothered to research it. How in the world is sending a few thousand volts through a convict (a ridiculous method, in my opinion), or injecting them with a painless, lethal drug, more expensive than an entire lifetime of food, clothing, and shelter (and cable t.v., books, magazines, college courses, gym equipment, etc.)?
What is this claim based on?
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 04/06/2002 20:22:00 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2002 : 22:48:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think it's been shown that people are in prison because they're poor and/or a member of a minority group and not because of the amount of damage that they did to society.
Which reminds me of some thing Richard Pryor said after he had done his act for the inmates in some large "state pen". He said that he had spent hours talking with the "brothers" who were serving time there. And he had only one thing to say about the penal system that was keeping them incarcerated.' THANK GOD they have penitentiaries, keep them suckers locked up and away from me! They're a bunch of criminals.'
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2002 : 23:36:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Exection in the style that are committed in the US are regularly more expensive then lifetime imprisonment would be.
I've always thought this was the oddest statistic, but never bothered to research it. How in the world is sending a few thousand volts through a convict (a ridiculous method, in my opinion), or injecting them with a painless, lethal drug, more expensive than an entire lifetime of food, clothing, and shelter (and cable t.v., books, magazines, college courses, gym equipment, etc.)?
What is this claim based on?
These claims almost always take into account the costs of automatic appeals. Most states have these in some form; some have a limited number, some are only limited by the number of legally appealable conditions. My guess is the actual cost of a particular death penalty case will vary widely from state to state. I have no idea if the oft-cited cost differential is an average of cases within a particular state or many states or all states that have the death penalty. I think the whole notion has been repeated so often, nobody knows anymore what the original source was.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2002 : 23:47:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
These claims almost always take into account the costs of automatic appeals. Most states have these in some form; some have a limited number, some are only limited by the number of legally appealable conditions. My guess is the actual cost of a particular death penalty case will vary widely from state to state. I have no idea if the oft-cited cost differential is an average of cases within a particular state or many states or all states that have the death penalty. I think the whole notion has been repeated so often, nobody knows anymore what the original source was.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs2.html
This site is biased on the issue, but their numbers appear to be OK.
The more important question would be wether you can put a price-tag on a human life even that of a criminal. If it were cheaper to just execute somebody, then imprison him for life, would it be automatically the right thing to do?
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2002 : 01:21:00 [Permalink]
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Just curious. Would anyone care to address the chief ethical issues of capital punishment. That is, does one death justify another? Plus, if someone is found guilty of capital murder, is eventually executed, then evidence exonerates the now victim, is the state culpable? And finally, considering the quality of counsel, and the differing opinions of judges, do all have the same protection under the law, considering capital punishment, unlike typical incarceration, is irreversible?
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2002 : 04:02:55 [Permalink]
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The argument that "It's OK if a few inoccent people die if the greater good is served" has always seemed to me to be particularly hypocritical.
How many exponents of that idea would stick to it if they found *themselves* wrongly incarcerated on Death Row?
"Be realistic, demand the impossible" - graffiti from Paris, May 1968. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2002 : 05:00:42 [Permalink]
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One of the problems that people cite is that appointed public defenders are often pretty lousy in one way or another, and not experienced in death penalty cases. One of the solutions that people have is to improve the quality of lawyers in death penalty cases. Almost as though it's okay to have innocent people imprisoned for life, or even a day.
quote:
The argument that "It's OK if a few inoccent people die if the greater good is served" has always seemed to me to be particularly hypocritical.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2002 : 08:42:51 [Permalink]
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A statistic by Amnesty internatinal tells of 90 persons who have been sentenced to death in the US only to be later found innocent and then been released.
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A reason why many people accept the fact that their system does convict innocents, could be because they think that it can not happen to them. Unfortunatley they are kind of right most of the time.
If you can afford a decent lawyer the you don't have to fear an imperfect legal system that might convict innocents. (Sometimes if you can afford a really good lawyer you don't even have anything to fear if you happen to be guilty.)
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2002 : 08:49:56 [Permalink]
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Snake> If you think it's a waste of time, why do you?
I voted “no”.
“I know mistakes are made, and the wrong guy can get snuffed. But more often than not, it's the right guy getting it.”
Now this one is really scary. So it's okay to kill off a few innocents as long as some of the bad guys get it, too? What kind of view is that? Badger, how would you feel if your brother got the needle for something he had nothing to do with?
“Second, prisons are already budget strapped and over crowded thus it frees up resources.”
So because prisons cost money, let's just kill ‘em off? I agree totally with Lars_H on this one. It shouldn't be about money. Human life doesn't come with a price-tag on it.
That prisons are budget strapped should bring another question on the table. Namely “why”?
“And yes, I'd be willing to pull the trigger, drop the axe, yank the switch, etc. "where warranted".”
So you'd be willing to kill someone, who'd never done anything against you? Maybe even someone who turns out to be innocent?
And what “deterrent effect”? That the death-penalty is even being used, proves it has no deterrent effect. If it did, it would not be used.
Tim> If killing is wrong, the state should not have monopoly on it? Not to mention, why is it okay for a soldier to kill? I have no idea what has happened in countries with death-penalty, when afterwards the executed one has been found to be innocent of the crime. Do we then punish the executioners?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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