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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2002 : 21:18:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
One of the problems that people cite is that appointed public defenders are often pretty lousy in one way or another, and not experienced in death penalty cases. One of the solutions that people have is to improve the quality of lawyers in death penalty cases. Almost as though it's okay to have innocent people imprisoned for life, or even a day.
My father, a 19-year public defender, is particularly vehement about this. Apparently, the majority of the death penalty cases in (surprise) Texas are handled by first- and second-year PDs. I can tell you that is not standard practice in Florida, however.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 03:20:02 [Permalink]
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This is a bit of a rare case (I hope), but Michael Moore's sister worked in Nevada County California where the public defender's office took like one case a year to trial. The rest were plea-bargained. In other words the PD told the defendants they'd better plead guilty and take whatever deal they were offered or they'd end up in prison for years.
(as shown on his TV show, The Awful Truth- no longer on the air)
This isn't death penalty cases. Don't know if they had any. This is all cases. You know that this has to happen to some degree all over.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 05:44:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
This is a bit of a rare case (I hope), but Michael Moore's sister worked in Nevada County California where the public defender's office took like one case a year to trial. The rest were plea-bargained. In other words the PD told the defendants they'd better plead guilty and take whatever deal they were offered or they'd end up in prison for years.
That seems like an exaggeration, but it's obviously true that most cases are plea-bargained. For better or worse, the system would simply collapse under its own weight if it were otherwise.
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
-Niels Bohr
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 06:40:07 [Permalink]
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This particular case was not an exaggeration. These people had little to do all day. I'm not saying that this is the case everywhere, I'm just saying that there are a lot of innocent people in prison.
Imprisoning and killing innocent people are not crimes when the state does it.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 07:03:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Imprisoning and killing innocent people are not crimes when the state does it.
I don't know if you can classify as a crime, but the state as a representative of our society is certainly responsible. This is the problem with the death penalty. It is irreversible, and the state and society must take responsiblity in the same way as individuals. If I kill another by mistake, I am still responsible for my actions. Furthermore, I am guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. Why assign to the state a lesser degree of responsibility than an individual? I, personally feel that the state should be held to a higher level of responsibility. But, that's just my opinion, and another topic.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 07:08:41 [Permalink]
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I am agreeing with you, except these people know that innocent people are being imprisoned and executed, so it is no longer involuntary manslaughter, it is murder.
quote:
I don't know if you can classify as a crime, but the state as a representative of our society is certainly responsible. This is the problem with the death penalty. It is irreversible, and the state and society must take responsiblity in the same way as I am guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. Why assign to the state a lesser degree of responsibility than an individual?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 10:14:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why assign to the state a lesser degree of responsibility than an individual?
That'd certainly be a quick and easy way to eliminate the death penalty altogether. No state would even pursue it were they to be held responsible for mistakes.
And speaking of mistakes:
quote:
these people know that innocent people are being imprisoned and executed
Has there been any incident yet of someone being executed and later found innocent? Last I heard, there had not been.
There being cases in which people sentenced to death, and later found innocent and released, it seems reasonable on one level to assume there has been innocents killed.
But if so, they certainly are doing a good job in keeping them under raps, considered how hard I'm sure organizations like Amnesty International are looking.
As for my own feelings on the matter, I am in favor of capital punishment in theory, but I believe that our system is not capable at the present time to implement it correctly. There is no excuse for one single mistake, and any mistake is totally unacceptable.
Insanity pleas aside, we all know Andrea Yates killed her 5 kids. Candidate for capital punishment, no problem here.
Yet there was a high profile case recently, I can't remember names, in which a man was sentenced to death on the word of only one witness, and some circumstancial evidence. No way would I support that.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 11:58:59 [Permalink]
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I don't know who has documented such things, but doesn't it go without saying that if there are mistakes found since DNA testing that there were mistakes made before DNA testing?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 12:05:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Why assign to the state a lesser degree of responsibility than an individual?
That'd certainly be a quick and easy way to eliminate the death penalty altogether. No state would even pursue it were they to be held responsible for mistakes.
There are a lot of entities that have many of the rights and advantages of individums and none of the responsibilities.
You never hear of cooperations, churches, paties or other organisations being trialed for murder.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 13:26:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't know who has documented such things, but doesn't it go without saying that if there are mistakes found since DNA testing that there were mistakes made before DNA testing?
I'd want to have documented proof before using it in an argument against capital punishment.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 13:30:40 [Permalink]
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You never hear of cooperations, churches, paties or other organisations being trialed for murder.
I don't think that that concept even makes sense.
If two or more people, whether they are part of an organization or not, conspire to commit murder, they are tried for conspiracy and/or murder. You can't try a whole corporation for murder. Who goes to jail? But any responsible parties within the corporation will sure as hell be tried for murder.
Corporations are definitely found negligent and at fault in deaths of individuals, but are tried in civil cases.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 19:15:02 [Permalink]
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I voted "yes."
It may sound harsh, but in many instances, I would consider such an act of mercy. After all, many would rather die than be incarcerated, and if it were up to me, aggravated rape and aggravated child rape would be punishable by the death penalty as well.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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Wolfgang_faust
Skeptic Friend
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 13:13:23 [Permalink]
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I am having a hard time following this thread. It was started by a poll about the death penalty. All I have read about is how bad the justice system is. You guys make it sound as if our system never works. I voted yes. I am just wondering what the people who keep going back to a lousy justice system would do with these people. If you incarcerate them for life instead of using the death penalty how is that better. What if they die in prison of "natural causes" and it is found later that they were innocent. Is that ok. Or should the be a statute of limitations on how long the courts have to find him innocent after he has been proven guilty?
I just don't see where this conversation is going. If the justice system is no good then no one is safe from wrongful imprisonment. So what is the answer then. I agree that there are serious problems with the courts in America, but that is the only systen that we have for prosectuting people and excecuting justice.
I guess I am just wondering what the "no capital punishment" crowd's answer to the problems is.
Add value to every day, Sharpen your skills, your understanding |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 13:35:42 [Permalink]
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The reason it's important to point out the flaws in the justice system in regards to capital punishment is that there is no way to undo it if evidence or something else that might exonerate someone convicted comes to light. Lock them up for life. They will not be able to cause regular citizens harm again and if something shows up that exonerates them they are still alive to go free.
I don't see that there is any argument for the death penalty that makes sense since there are alternatives that work just as well. To me the death penalty is filed under 2 wrongs don't make a right.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Wolfgang_faust
Skeptic Friend
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 14:10:19 [Permalink]
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Let me ask a question that may be a bit off topic. What do the "Life sentence" people think the lifestyle of inmates should be. By this I mean TV's, cable, gyms, and all of the "luxuries" that the tax payers are affording them. Should they be given these things or should it be crust of bread and water? I am just curious.
Add value to every day, Sharpen your skills, your understanding |
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