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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2002 : 14:16:15 [Permalink]
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Agree with Atomic here. The way to show that society cares about life is to make sure that society only kills when absolutely necessary.
There is no proof that the death penalty improves society in any way. If you think someone is a danger to themselves and others and you don't know how to fix them, then keep those people away from others. If you don't, then what good does it do to kill or imprison them? What science is there behind this kind of "justice?" We kill people because they "deserve" it. How does this help society? We imprison people to "punish" them. Why? For what purpose? What science is there behind this? Most people in prison are there because they are poor, black, hispanic or a combination of the three. What benefit does society receive for this? Keeping prison-based industry wealthy?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 14:16:54 [Permalink]
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I think TVs, gyms and the like are shared by all inmates so the cost is probably not that high. Crust of bread and water will not sustain life for very long so that's obviously out. One thing to consider when it comes to TV is that the inmates get to see what they're missing so that may be a part of the punishment. But these "luxeries" probably cost a lot less than regular rioting if you don't give them something to focus on and since they are shared and inmates don't have TVs in their cells the cost per inmate is incredibly low. Let's see $300 dollar TV shared by 2,000 inmates plus $30 basic cable...That's fractions of a penny per year per inmate. If cost is your point there isn't one.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 14:21:08 [Permalink]
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Some of these things make life easier for guards as much as inmates. When inmates are occupied and happy, they're much easier to keep, and I think it may be even cheaper in the long run for some of these things.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Wolfgang_faust
Skeptic Friend
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 14:35:14 [Permalink]
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I wasn't actually trying to make a point. I was just wanting to know what you all thought about the things given to the inmates while they are in prison. My brother-in-law was in a Texas prison for nine years and got a HVAC degree, so when he got out last year he would be able to look for work. That was all paid for by taxes also. I think that is fantastic. mainly because it is a form of rehabilitaion. I haven't heard if he has been able to get a job or not, but he has the education. Again I was just looking for your thoughts on the subject.
Add value to every day, Sharpen your skills, your understanding |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 15:19:24 [Permalink]
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I think education or at least the availability of it is a must. I would rather see people come out with some skills and the possibility of a bright future than the alternative. The same with applies to drug rehab. Sometimes you need to spend money to make or save money. In fact, I do hope that drug rehab is mandatory for anyone convicted of drug related crimes. If it's not it should be.
I know that there are issues some people have with that because most of us have to pay for things like education and medical care etc. but if the education and training can help to keep some of these people from future criminal activity it is money well spent.
This shouldn't apply to inmates with life sentences. I see no use training people that most likely will never get out. If someone is exonerated and it can be shown that they were wrongly imprisoned they should collect some sort of cash settlement.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Wolfgang_faust
Skeptic Friend
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2002 : 15:29:02 [Permalink]
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I hope that I didn't misrepresent myself. I absolutely agree with you on that point. If we have people in prison I think that money should be spent to educate those people, so that if they serve their time and get out, they can be productive. I was using my brother-in-law as an example.
Add value to every day, Sharpen your skills, your understanding |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2002 : 03:24:20 [Permalink]
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Here I go, again. I just went to submit this reply, got a preview, found a misspelled word, clicked back, and lost everything. And I''m a REAL slow typist.
Anyway....
quote:
I do hope that drug rehab is mandatory for anyone convicted of drug related crimes. If it''s not it should be.
I understand, and agree with the sentiment here, but feel the rehab should take place at the end of the sentence, and in a sort of half way house environment.
Because of my rather adventurous past, I have known quite a few people that have, at the least, done a weekend lock up, and a brother that did six years for drug related crimes. Each of these people were able to find drugs in prison or jail, and to this day still use. All those of us in the old crowd that were lucky enough not to get caught are now drug free, (with a few exceptions pertaining to a little alcohol, or maybe a rare joint).
I know that this is just an anecdotal inference, but I just don''t believe the prison system is a viable environment for rehabilitation. It''s a better place to train a bunch of good old boys to become hardened criminals. As a matter of fact, I feel that the drug laws are the real problem.
But, this is the wrong forum for this conversation. Maybe a thread concerning prison rehabilitation , or consentual crimes would be a better place.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2002 : 17:05:55 [Permalink]
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Kaneda> “It may sound harsh, but in many instances, I would consider such an act of mercy. After all, many would rather die than be incarcerated,”
Who would rather die than go to prison?
“and if it were up to me, aggravated rape and aggravated child rape would be punishable by the death penalty as well.”
Those crimes are truly horrible. But what does execution do? It does not undo the crime but adds to the general violence in society. I have other ideas of what to do with rapists and child-molesters!!!
And rehabilitation is a must. Some psychology treatment and what have you. If you kill someone in cold blood, your sick in the head.
And I still want to know: Is it okay for a soldier to kill?
P.S.: Atomic> Thank you :)
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2002 : 23:32:38 [Permalink]
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I think very, very, few are not bothered by the prospect of execution(?) but incarceration's another matter. The emphasis on rehabilitation has decreased during the last decade or two as evidence began to mount that it rarely works, particularly in the cases of multiple offenders. And strange as it seems, some guys (and gals, I suppose) don't mind prison to varying degrees, or even would prefer the environment to a society where they don't fit. I agree that it's a good idea to teach prisoners a trade to give them an option when they get out, anyway.
Regarding mention of drug laws, it might belong on another thread, but I think the relevance of drug laws is there. I think it's a good idea not to take such drugs, but they make for bad laws in terms of the economic impact on the prison system including early release of violent offenders due to overcrowding (lifers pressure the system from the opposite end.) Then there's the economic impact on the country overall, the corrupting effect on criminal justice, health problems associated with addict's decadent lifestyles induced by the criminality of drug use (and on and on) but that's another topic.
Edited by - ronnywhite on 04/10/2002 23:36:50 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2002 : 05:08:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
And I still want to know: Is it okay for a soldier to kill?
So, I'll put my two cents worth in. No. Definitely not. It is not okay for a soldier to kill. I wouldn't even call it ethical, or moral. Unfortunately, sometimes it is necessary. I'll take some flack here and quote a line from Pink Floyd's 'Wish You were Here', (I believe), "Did you trade a walk on part in a war for a lead role in a cage?"
Sometimes the livin' just ain't worth it.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2002 : 20:38:15 [Permalink]
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If the justice system worked perfectly, if there has never been an innocent person executed, if it cost less to execute then house a murderer, if there were more whites on death row then any other hue, I would still oppose the death penalty.
I want to live in a civilized society.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2002 : 21:28:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
I want to live in a civilized society.
For the sake of discussion, what exactly is "uncivilized" about the death penalty? I hear this used a lot by the anti-death penalty crowd, without any argument as to why they think this way. I suspect it has the potential of being a bit of a straw man. Are you saying that pro-death penalty advocates are less civilized than you?
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 02:14:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I want to live in a civilized society.
For the sake of discussion, what exactly is "uncivilized" about the death penalty? I hear this used a lot by the anti-death penalty crowd, without any argument as to why they think this way. I suspect it has the potential of being a bit of a straw man. Are you saying that pro-death penalty advocates are less civilized than you?
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all
Well civilized is probably not the right word, I agree with you there.
Deathpenalty is not more uncivilized then torture or slavery. Look for example at the roman empire. A great civilization despite there blatant ignorance of basic human rights.
There are other connotations to the word cvilized besides being more advanced or developed. Some dictionarys give additional meanings like:
quote:
2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable
(emphasis mine)
It is possible that meaning that people had in mind when they thing of things like stoning people as uncivilized.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 06:18:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
There are other connotations to the word cvilized besides being more advanced or developed. Some dictionarys give additional meanings like:
quote:
2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable
(emphasis mine)
It is possible that meaning that people had in mind when they thing of things like stoning people as uncivilized.
Yes, I believe that's the heart of it. Some believe that the death penalty in any form is unethical, inhumane, and unreasonable. Others believe that it's perfectly reasonable, and that things like lethal injection are perfectly humane and ethical. I'm sure they'd object (as do I) to being called uncivilized.
Call me Captain Obvious. 
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 07:19:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes, I believe that's the heart of it. Some believe that the death penalty in any form is unethical, inhumane, and unreasonable. Others believe that it's perfectly reasonable, and that things like lethal injection are perfectly humane and ethical. I'm sure they'd object (as do I) to being called uncivilized.
Call me Captain Obvious.
Yeah, but do you think that people who advocat other crimes against human rights feel that they are uncivilized?
I am sure that those that cut off a thieves hands as punishment feel that it is a perfectly reasonable ethical. Stoning a women to death for being unfaithful to her husband is seen as civilized behaviour by its proponents. Slave-owners in the past probably didn't think of themselves as uncivilized either.
There is no absolute way to judge what is civilized and what not. That is why it is better to discuss things like that with better defined terms, which would maske it will be harder to agree to disgree.
What makes you think that death-penalty is reasonable for example? What objectives do you think are accomplished better with it then with life-long imprisonment?
Note revenge and the satisfaction to see a a piece of human scum fry are emotional understandable but not very reasonable objectives.
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