|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2002 : 14:08:56 [Permalink]
|
OK then. Maybe civilized is a word to generally defined to make clear the meaning I was trying to convey. However, my guess is that you know exactly what I meant by it.
I would choose, if I could, to live in a world where the taking of a human life was simply unacceptable. (I'm not talking about dignity cases or a woman's right to choose, just so you know.) Frankly, I don't understand the arguments in support of the death penalty. Vengeance doesn't work for me. Killing to save money doesn't work for me. A deterrent? Oh please. It seems to me that State approved murder, ummmm, I mean executions, just can't be setting a very good example for how I feel people should view the purposeful taking of a human life. In this cowboy world, it's cowboy justice. I would like to see the state rise above acting on the urge to get even.
It's not ok to kill, so if you do it, we will kill you.
I fail to find the logic in that kind of thinking. I think the State should be setting a better example then that. How can we claim the high ground while engaging in what has, ultimately, the same result that the murderer was convicted for?
In my version of a civilized country, the death penalty is viewed as one more brutality we committed in the past. One that would be unthinkable by now.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
 |
|
|
Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 14:46:08 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Frankly, I don't understand the arguments in support of the death penalty. Vengeance doesn't work for me. Killing to save money doesn't work for me. A deterrent? Oh please. It seems to me that State approved murder, ummmm, I mean executions, just can't be setting a very good example for how I feel people should view the purposeful taking of a human life.
I am not in favour of executions, but I think I can at least understand the arguments used in support of it.
It is not meant to set some sort of example. People, who think that death-penalty would deter from crimes, reason that the live of one proven murder is worth less then the life of several innocent future victims that might be saved.
If deterence would actually work then we would stand before a moral dilema regarding the life of many/innocent and life few/guilty. Thankfully it does not work and we don't have to make such a choice.
quote:
In my version of a civilized country, the death penalty is viewed as one more brutality we committed in the past. One that would be unthinkable by now.
I liked to think that I lived in such a country. I realized that all it takes are a few dead children and a few bad journalists to get a majority in opinon polls for capital punishment. All that prevents Germany from 'falling back to barbarism' is timeing and the integrity of our polticians. Not a very comforting thought for the next elections.
|
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2002 : 10:19:06 [Permalink]
|
quote:
What you seemed to be doing was insulting people who don't agree with you. Whether or not you meant to is what I didn't understand, which is why I asked for clarification.
I did not mean to offend. On the other hand I think supporting the death penalty is wrong headed for the reasons I have stated. I realize that my position on the death penalty is just an opinion. One of many that I have. It's one that I feel strongly about. What I said could be taken personally, I suppose, but I did not mean it to be taken that way. Maybe I'm not good enough with words to convey how appalling I think the death penalty is without offending some of it's supporters. I dunno.
I know that you must have read other posts of mine. By now you must know that I do not approve of personal attacks on these boards....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
|
|
|
Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2002 : 20:31:05 [Permalink]
|
oops, I deleted my post before your reply showed up. I was making too much of it anyway.
bygones... 
------------
Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
|
|
|
Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 17:27:55 [Permalink]
|
TokyoDreamer> “For the sake of discussion, what exactly is "uncivilized" about the death penalty?”
Killing is uncivilised. If murder is a crime, then society should not use as punishment, what is being punished for. What do you achieve by letting society kill? It adds to the general violence of society, does not undo the crime and if murder is a crime, then it is a crime. No matter who does it.
Because you're for society-murder, doesn't mean anyone considers you unethical, inhumane and without morals. The act of execution I do consider as such. It is cold-blooded murder. Planned, sometimes even broadcast and carried out without mercy.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 18:23:15 [Permalink]
|
I personally feel that the death penalty is so popular in the United States because it is basically the old "eye for an eye" concept of justice that is both a simplistic way of meting out justice and it's in scripture that many Americans seem to think of as real law.
Meanwhile, over in Europe where the reach of the church has diminished over the years, capital punishment is all but eliminated.
In Islamic countries where the grip of religion is like an iron vice you can be put to death for almost anything. There does seem to be some relationship between the severity of punishment and religions influence. The funny thing is that the more devout want more blood. It's kind of ironic when you think about it.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 18:38:09 [Permalink]
|
Well said, Atomic.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
|
|
|
Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 18:55:53 [Permalink]
|
Atomic> But what “bakes my noodle” is that the “eye for an eye” thing is in the old Testament. And on the Thesis-Antithesis Jesus says something along the lines of “You've heard it is an eye for an eye… But if somebody hits you, turn the other cheek.”
But maybe the blood-thirsty fundamentalists never got that far?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 19:03:24 [Permalink]
|
Fundamentalists have a way of picking what they want out of the Bible to prove a point and ommitting the parts that run contrary to that point. Fundamentalists leave the "turn the other cheek" concept at the church door I find.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 02:36:15 [Permalink]
|
I am a person who is totally against the death penalty. It is proven that the number of innocent people falsely executed is far to high to be acceptable. The fact is there is no proof that it is a deterrent to violent crime. There is a total inequality in which it is decided on who is executed for a crime to people who do the same crime and walk in less then 6 years. I guess though that I am most amazed that the USA thinks of itself as one of the most civilized nations in the world yet we are the only developed nation that still uses it yet we still have one of the highest rates of violent crimes. We are the only developed nation to still allow Corporal punishment in schools, have the death penalty and unrestricted ownership of guns yet we think America is a great civilized country protecting the rights of global freedom yet we are also the most violent country of the free world.
Until we stop killing, hurting and reacting in the eye for an eye concept we will never reach the level of civalization we think we already have in the USA.
We talk about world peace yet we cannot get in our own country with our own citizens. For those wanting justice by killing the person they believe killed their loved one that is not justice. It is revenge. A death does not cancel out violence done it propetuates it.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 03:09:17 [Permalink]
|
I've gotten the impression over the years that many Christians seem to put Jesus on such a high pedestal that they honesty believe, as mere men-(their term)-and inherently evil, they could never aspire to be as perfect as Christ. The Old Testament heros are easy to identify with. They are cruel, ruthless, intolerant, sexually confused and enjoy the subjugation of women. A fundamentalist can read about the murderer called Moses, and say, "Wow, I wish I could be like him." These characters have faults, and are readily identified with. Furthermore, even God seems to confuse vengence with justice.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
|
|
|
Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 05:32:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
It is proven that the number of innocent people falsely executed is far to high to be acceptable.
Please provide some reference to any proof that an innocent person has been executed. In hearing debates between Amnesty International and pro-death penalty advocates, no one has ever to my knowledge given one example of someone who was innocent that had been executed. If they had proof, we'd be hearing about it from every anti-death penalty advocate, and the names would be household.
As I've said before, I believe it is reasonable to assume that there has been at some time since 1976 (isn't this when the death penalty was reinstated?) an innocent person executed. But the claim that it has been proven needs to be backed up, for the sake of intellectual honesty.
------------
Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
|
|
|
Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
|
|
Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 14:13:20 [Permalink]
|
In Illinois alone 13 people have been released from death row alone since the use of DNA testing has proved that the person who committed the crime could not have been responsible. Illinois has suspended the Death Penalty.
The Lindburgh Baby Kidnapping research has proven that Haupbergh, the man executed for the crime, did not do it and the real murderer confessed years later in Germany.
I believe our desire to see anyone punished for a horrific crime overwhelms our judgement to make sure the RIGHT person is punished. With all the guilty people we have knowingly let go (O J is proof to me) why would you even doubt that innocent people are killed?
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 14:21:30 [Permalink]
|
The Russians released information that the Rosenberg's were innocent yet they were executed for treason back in the 50's.
I think the number people released after DNA testing exonerated them has to make you think about whether people were executed wrongly before that testing was available. To deny that it's likely, no highly likely, that innocents were executed in light of this seems ridiculous.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
