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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2007 : 03:12:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Hell, even Dave gets things right now and then. I think we should ignore an entire thread if it upsets us too much. This is what I generally do with Mozina's iron sun threads. (In that case, the main reason it upsets me is that I don't know enough to intelligently engage in the merriment.)
Several people here (yeah, you bastards know full well who you are!) have greatly upset me in the past. But I'm becoming hardened. If I can't take on someone's comments and ideas, it might just mean that I'm wrong.
If I tackle them, however distasteful the language gets, three main things may result: 1) I prove my point, winning the awed admiration of all, and the humble apologies of my opponents; 2) I'm shown what an idiot I am, if I cannot back up my position, and I learn from the process (even if it's just learning to stay clear of certain smart-assed bastards and their so-called "facts"); 3) Nobody convinces nobody, and yet eventually the flames burn down and the conflict dies away, until the next thread touches on or near the same topic, or simply brings the major combatants together again.
For me, option 3 is the most common result, followed closely by option 2. But whichever happens, I find myself made stronger and wiser by the process -- assuming one may broadly define "stronger" to include "less sensitive," and "wiser" as to include "slicker, harder to pin down, and more cagey."
I gotta see what all the other folks are saying, if I participate at all in a conversation. It's bad enough when others deny me information, but denying it to myself just makes no sense.
It is harder on a smaller board. In a forum with more people it's easy to ignore individuals or whole threads. But here the same flames have been carried over into multiple threads.
I've been posting here for a long time. I have never experienced the personal attacks like I have here in the last three months. Usually people say stuff and you call them on it and that's the end of it. Without naming names (trying to be more PC since naming names has been called rude), all I can say is the fact some people (more than one) just wouldn't let up has made it impossible to post anything. I don't know what else to say.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 06:33:57 [Permalink]
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beskeptigal wrote: quote:
I have never experienced the personal attacks like I have here in the last three months.
I agree with this, and I think this is the reason why Kil began this very thread. Although the problem is bigger and more complex than just a few bad apples. In fact, I don't necessarily think there are any bad apples on this forum at all. I think that generally what has happened is because we are a fairly small forum, we're all getting to know each other, and not everyone gets along with everyone else. This doesn't mean either person is an inappropriate asshole, but rather, their styles are debate or opinions differ in a way which causes them to dislike each other personally. Once that happens, everything the other person says is more likely to get overblown. And also, when someone on this forum really does take things too far and gets rude, that opens the door to everyone getting more hostile. Lately I've seen rude or immature statements from people I never thought would be like that, and I've written things myself that I think were needlessly harsh or immature because I was so personally offended about what someone else said. I don't know how this problem of rising tensions can be fixed. Maybe it can only be fixed by all of us major posters taking a breath and then attempting to be more diplomatic or sensitive when we respond to people we've had issues with in the past. Then again, I've tried diplomacy myself and gotten equally hostile responses. (Maybe I'm not very good at diplomacy, or maybe they just didn't believe in the genuine and literal nature of my remarks?) Maybe that flame pit or whatever it was called that filthy mentioned another forum had is something we need at this stage. Personally, I think I might like having a place where I'm expected to just let loose and say all the nasty angry things I feel when I'm pissed at someone, and then hear what they've really been wanting to say. But then again, maybe that'll just make things worse. I dunno, but something's gotta change. I know I'm not the only person who is growing increasingly uncomfortable in this forum and more often thinking of leaving. :-( |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 07:18:02 [Permalink]
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| I think there is an axis of evil here, that must be wiped out. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 07:35:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think there is an axis of evil here, that must be wiped out.
Oh, oh, oh, can I be North Korea? Pretty please? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 07:58:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
quote:
I think there is an axis of evil here, that must be wiped out.
Oh, oh, oh, can I be North Korea? Pretty please?
I'll have to check with God, but I think answering that question might fall into the realm of negotiations, which would be succumbing to evil.
No, God says you're not North Korea. God says you're more like Canada. Just as Canada is a little evil, since it's not America, you're only a little evil, since you're not a man. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 08:39:38 [Permalink]
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beskeptigal said:
quote:
I am fed up with being personally attacked for my political views and I'm fed up with being called a liar.
No one has attacked you because of your political views. To make such a claim is more than a little delusional on your part.
I lit into you because of your use of logical fallacy and your repeated insistence that you were "just stating an opinion" when you were clearly well outside the realm of opinion. So far outside that you repeatedly attempted to defend your assertion with logical fallacy.
And it is highly offensive to ignore people and then publicly state that you are doing so. As Dave_W pointed out, on a certain larger forum if you post the names of people on your ignore list, you will be banned.
What would have been the problem with just not responding to people who you percieve as having offended you? Why did you feel the need to elevate the conflict by publicly posting the names of people you are going to ignore?
A person of your education almost certainly has to be aware that passive agressive behavior of this sort is considered offensive in the extreme, and is also an open act of hostility.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 09:02:12 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
No, God says you're not North Korea. God says you're more like Canada. Just as Canada is a little evil, since it's not America, you're only a little evil, since you're not a man.
I think this conversation just took a turn into the surreal.
Dude wrote: quote:
No one has attacked you because of your political views. To make such a claim is more than a little delusional on your part.
I lit into you because of your use of logical fallacy and your repeated insistence that you were "just stating an opinion" when you were clearly well outside the realm of opinion. So far outside that you repeatedly attempted to defend your assertion with logical fallacy.
And it is highly offensive to ignore people and then publicly state that you are doing so. As Dave_W pointed out, on a certain larger forum if you post the names of people on your ignore list, you will be banned.
What would have been the problem with just not responding to people who you percieve as having offended you? Why did you feel the need to elevate the conflict by publicly posting the names of people you are going to ignore?
A person of your education almost certainly has to be aware that passive agressive behavior of this sort is considered offensive in the extreme, and is also an open act of hostility.
You just love trying to apply strict logic to things that it cannot be applied to. The whole argument over whether bgal was stating an opinion/rhetorical hyperbole, poorly phrased and then corrected for clarity, has been discussed excessively, and there was no overwhelming conclusion that she was engaging in logical fallacies. Only you kept insisting that, and several other respected critical thinkers on this forum disagreed with you and stated, quite clearly, why they disagreed with you. The conversation should have ended there - agreeing to disagree. But you were the one who brought it back up in other threads. You were the one who said that you would keep bringing it up until others conceded to your claim of logical fallacy.
As for whether telling someone you are ignoring them is rude or a courtesy, that is obviously dependent on social dynamics. While I myself side with it being rather rude (although not as grave an offense as Dave described, largely because most of these arguments have been in public, so not naming names isn't really hiding anything.), I also take bgal at her word when she says she meant it as a courtesy. Whether it is rude or courteous is totally dependent on how people are used to perceiving such actions. And as I recall, you Dude once threatened to put me on your ignore list in a PM. You didn't do it in public, but you did engage in telling someone that you were planning on ignoring them, and now you are agreeing that this is something inappropriate to do. Pot calling the kettle black? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/07/2007 09:03:21 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 10:05:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Gorgo wrote: quote:
No, God says you're not North Korea. God says you're more like Canada. Just as Canada is a little evil, since it's not America, you're only a little evil, since you're not a man.
I think this conversation just took a turn into the surreal.
Just absurd. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 10:18:35 [Permalink]
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marfknox said:
quote:
You just love trying to apply strict logic to things that it cannot be applied to. The whole argument over whether bgal was stating an opinion/rhetorical hyperbole, poorly phrased and then corrected for clarity, has been discussed excessively, and there was no overwhelming conclusion that she was engaging in logical fallacies. Only you kept insisting that, and several other respected critical thinkers on this forum disagreed with you and stated, quite clearly, why they disagreed with you. The conversation should have ended there - agreeing to disagree. But you were the one who brought it back up in other threads. You were the one who said that you would keep bringing it up until others conceded to your claim of logical fallacy.
It is a simple fact that beskeptigal stated a conclusion (not hyperbole or opinion) and then proceded to demand that I prove her wrong. The demand for me to prove her wrong indicated that she was, even in her own mind, not engaging in opinion or any kind of rhetorical hyperbole. When you make an asserion, and that assertion is challeneged, and you demand your challenger to prove you wrong, you are engaging in argumentive logical fallacy.
So, it is quite clear to anyone looking at this objectively that she was in no way "just stating an opinion" and that she did indeed use logical fallacy to defend her assertion.
Nothing you say can change those simple facts. No matter how hard you try to distort reality to make allowances for her, you cannot escape the fact that she made an assertion and then defended her assertion with fallacy.
quote:
And as I recall, you Dude once threatened to put me on your ignore list in a PM. You didn't do it in public, but you did engage in telling someone that you were planning on ignoring them, and now you are agreeing that this is something inappropriate to do. Pot calling the kettle black?
Obviously you are incapable of comprehending the difference between telling a person, in private, that you are going to ignore them and posting in a public thread the names of people you are ignoring. This, however, is fairly typical of your behavior here. So... whatever.
Since you brought it up, for the record, what I told you in a PM was this:
quote:
I'm seriously considering making you the first person to populate my SFN ignore list.
Your overwhelming hypocrisy and hostility are what provoked me to consider ignoring your PMs in the first place.
Also, I never said, or even threatened, to publicly ignore you (seeing as how you can't use the ignre function here to blot out a person's posts anyway).
Once again (how shocking) you have used the fallacy of shifting context to try and make your point. You should consider changing up to a different fallacy, because your overuse of this one is becomming extremely boring.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 16:24:49 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote:quote:
Obviously you are incapable of comprehending the difference between telling a person, in private, that you are going to ignore them and posting in a public thread the names of people you are ignoring.
No, actually I was responding to both of your snotty responses to bgal in this thread, starting with this: quote:
bgal: quote:
I finally started using the ignore feature on JREF (only 2 names on there at the moment) and it has more of an effect than I had imagined it would.
Ignorance is bliss, afterall.
Here she only made mention of her positive experience of using the JREF ignore feature, and you responded with a condescending comment. In my response mentioning the PM I was pointing out that you, too, have considered being blissfully ignorant.
quote:
Your overwhelming hypocrisy and hostility...
I'd reply to these comments.... but my irony gland has exploded and I need to wait for it to heal up first.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2007 : 16:44:31 [Permalink]
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Oh for crying out loud!!! (<-- Directed at several people. No one is being singled out…)
This thread is for considering what you can do to make this forum a bit more civil. Not for rehashing old arguments and fighting about them to see who is right.
This should not be a difficult concept for adults to understand. (Note: I am still giving you the benefit of the doubt in that department.)
The last three pages of this thread, with some notable exceptions, have been very discouraging for me to read.
I am unwilling at this time to concede that a reasonable amount of civility is simply beyond our grasp.
In that spirit I would ask that you, in this thread, reframe from blaming, defending old arguments and bringing personal matters up for complaint.
Take those things to the threads where they originated and deal with it if you must. Or take them to PM's. Or just, you know, drop it. (If they originated in this thread, figure something out.) I promise that the sky will not fall, and that our skepticism will not be fatally wounded if you do that. There are plenty of options available.
In this thread, please try to wrap your heads around the idea that we just might be more effective in our arguments if we bring a little more civility to them. Make suggestions. Think about what you can do to make that happen. Whatever… You can even tell me that I am full of crap for even trying to make civility an issue. If I need to hear that, go for it…
Kil
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 18:22:24 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote: quote:
This thread is for considering what you can do to make this forum a bit more civil.
OK.
My biggest difficulty is consistency. I intend to not overreact and to word my own posts more neutrally, but making intentions match up with behavior is often difficult. My latest plan is to type up my debate responses in a WORD doc first, and then walk away from it for at least 30 minutes, then try to re-read everything with a different perspective, edit my response, and then post it. Just telling ya'll this in case this suggestion is useful to anyone else. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 18:56:48 [Permalink]
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So I've spent today playing carpenter. I've been building a sandbox from scratch for my six-year-old. Despite the sheer, head-pounding frustration of miscuts, poorly driven screws, warped lumber, bad angles, split wood, sawdust in the carpet, splinters, and nobody to blame for it all but myself, I had a hell of a lot more fun doing it than reading the posts here today.
Which says quite a bit about me. And so for my part, to make this forum more civil, I'm going to stick to just doing my job around here, at least until the fun comes back into it for me. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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A little more civility, please…
