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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
 Posted - 06/10/2008 : 14:11:21
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWQqh_6gKk4
Now, this is refreshing to hear.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 15:23:57 [Permalink]
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And he mentioned atheists several time as if they were real people!
That's somewhat of a risky bet he is doing; indeed; the conservative will easily twist that into a 'lack of Christian values' or whatever.
On the other hand he is being rational about religion, and it is quite sad that it surprises us so much... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 16:06:33 [Permalink]
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Just so's ya know, Obama wasn't going to get the RR fundamentalist christian vote anyway. So he has nothing to lose by supporting all religions and the non-religious by making the point that this is a pluralistic society, and government should be in the business of protecting everyones right to believe as they like, and not that of protecting just one segment of the population.
It's a good thing to point out since most americans do not line up with the religious right.
Edited.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 21:31:09 [Permalink]
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Kil.....
| It's a good thing to point out since most americans do not line up with the religious right. |
I hope to god you're right! However, "most americans" are politically unaffiliated, and many polls suggest that "most americans" are pretty damn religious. How much overlap there is of these two universes, no one knows.
I fear that many independents may be right of religious center enough to be swayed by the Republican Religious Right's condemnation of Obama as a secular liberal zealot who is committed to destroying "Traditional American Values".
Obama's speech above was measured, rational, sensible, and extremely well-spoken to those of above-average intelligence and education. The question that will be answered in November is - How many independent voters will buy the Rovian Republican claptrap?
I'll give Obama credit for balls! He told it like it is, and seems to be oblivious to possible political repercussions! But look at the damage that the Rabid Reverend Wright did to him! And this was within the Democratic party!
There are a hell of a lot of zombies out there that are either incapable of or unwilling to think! And far too many find their way to the voting booth!
Obama is already being portrayed as a snobbish, secular, intellectual effete who will destroy American values of patriotism and Christian rightousness. One can only hope that he does not get Swift Boated or Reverend Wrighted into defeat by the vicious smear machine of McCain that has just begun to get a head of steam!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 22:10:41 [Permalink]
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Yeah Bill, I hope I'm right too. I just can't help thinking that most americans would prefer not to live in a theocracy and that all religions deserve the same protections under the law. Most of us were taught that one of americas strengths was our freedom of religion. We learned that before we got out of high school. Do you suppose that the majority of americans have changed their minds on that?
I offer this as my evidence that most americans don't line up with the RR. In almost every case, perhaps every case where a school board has changed the science standard to fit their religious views, those who voted to change the standards were voted off the boards the following election and the new standards were reversed. And I strongly doubt that atheists made up the majority of voters that gave those boardmebers the boot. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2008 : 23:18:53 [Permalink]
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| It's weird, I don't think anyone in the UK takes religion into account whatsoever when voting. |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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Jumbo
New Member
24 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 01:46:50 [Permalink]
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| If anything we seem to not vote for overtly religious candidates. I think it comes across as a bit weird to voters and they aren't sure if they want such people in charge of anything more than a church fete. |
The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be lighted |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 02:53:33 [Permalink]
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Hey Jumbo, great to see you out of the woodwork again, bro! Long time, no hear from....
Originally posted by Jumbo
If anything we seem to not vote for overtly religious candidates. I think it comes across as a bit weird to voters and they aren't sure if they want such people in charge of anything more than a church fete.
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This, to an extent at least, is true of the "average" voter, whatever sort of beast that might be. I think it's truer today, as the Religious Right, with it's ever-increasing, moral baggage, exerts a little less authority with each closet-caper exposed. And they like McCain and his ever-changing positions on just about everything only slightly more than sex eduction.
But never forget: in '04, the lying, treasonous swift-boat scumbags managed to turn a genuine, VN war hero into the picture of a phony.
I think that Obama is smart enough to counter such asinine attacks and there is always the fact that McCain has nothing but Bush policies and the Hanoi Hilton to campaign on. He and Bush are on parade with Lt. Schisskoph's cupra-nickle swivel joints binding them together, at a time when all but the brain-dead & drooling loyalists, and the profiteers are despising our current pretender to office.
But it's a long haul to November and anything can happen....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 04:47:11 [Permalink]
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Unless I missed something, he actually didn't use the A-word at all, and instead said something like "people who have no faith at all." I suspect that the A-word carries too much baggage and would act as a dog whistle for the far-right media pundits. The way he phrased it is, perhaps, a little more subtle.
That said, I'm surprised that Obama made the statements he did, and I'm even more surprised that this video hasn't been making the rounds on the far-right AM radio/Christian media circuit. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 07:51:23 [Permalink]
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Yep; especially to Georgie; whose Daddy kept out of arm's way and that even that was too hard for him...
'If you kept telling a lie long enough; it become the truth.'
I respect and agree with Obama's position. But I am worried that it might be used to hurt him... The lies are strong in these ones. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 09:58:59 [Permalink]
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I agree only on the part that christianity or any religion should not be taught in public schools.
IN a part of this he says I must translate my values into universal values. He gives the example of abortion, that I cannot claim in an argument that abortion should be illegal based on my faith. He says that any argument must violate a principle of all faiths. This is insane. This is saying that if one religion thinks that murder is ok then it should be legal, since all cannot come to an agreement. Huh?
He may believe in God, but he does not seem to beleive in the God of the bible. (my opinion) |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 10:13:59 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
He says that any argument must violate a principle of all faiths. This is insane. This is saying that if one religion thinks that murder is ok then it should be legal, since all cannot come to an agreement. Huh?
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You aren't paying attention Robb. That isn't what he said at all.
| He may believe in God, but he does not seem to beleive in the God of the bible. (my opinion) |
Yeah, because your god is better than his god!
WTF Robb? Many times here I think you are more or less rational... and then you go and say shit like this, proving that you are just a delusional nutbag. NO TRUE CHRISTIAN! Is flawed logic Robb.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 10:27:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
This is saying that if one religion thinks that murder is ok then it should be legal, since all cannot come to an agreement. Huh? |
We have perfectly rational and secular reasons for making murder illegal, Robb.
Obama is saying that making laws based upon faith is the wrong thing to do. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 11:36:23 [Permalink]
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Vegeta.....
| It's weird, I don't think anyone in the UK takes religion into account whatsoever when voting. |
Vegeta, I think it all dates back to the Puritans that were an integral part of our nation's founding. They were so intent on escaping what they perceived as the opression of the Church of England, that they carried the fanaticism of Calvin to our shores and planted a tree that has dropped many acorns here.
The fundamentalist crazies have been around for a long time, but it has only been in the late 20th century that their predeliction to programmable group robotic behavior has been recognized by the manipulators of the Republican party and organized into a potent political force!
The reversal of the "solid South" from Democratic to Republican politics is a rather recent example of the successful exploitation and manipulation of simple folks for political purposes, utilizing religious leverage.
Lincoln freed the slaves. Southerners lost the Civil war. The South was unified for well over a century after the Reconstruction against the party of Lincoln. Democratic support for civil rights began to weaken this solidarity in the 60's. And the politicization of the churches of the white Southern congregations began by cunning Republican strategists; beginning with the Nixon administration, and continuing through Reagan up to the recent quintessential Rovian utilization of demagogues like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson to dictate Republican dogma to the myrmidons of fundamentalist faiths.
Most recently, this polarization of religious versus secular has been nationalized and is a predominant political force. No candidate of either party can dare indicate that they are not deeply religious, although many undoubtedly are not (simply because they are too intelligent and perceptive to accept denominational religious nonsense!) So they all pretend and carefully craft a religion plank into their political platform.
It's what makes America greatly stupid enough to elect a moronic marionette like George Bush!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 12:42:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I agree only on the part that christianity or any religion should not be taught in public schools.
IN a part of this he says I must translate my values into universal values. He gives the example of abortion, that I cannot claim in an argument that abortion should be illegal based on my faith. He says that any argument must violate a principle of all faiths. This is insane. This is saying that if one religion thinks that murder is ok then it should be legal, since all cannot come to an agreement. Huh?
He may believe in God, but he does not seem to beleive in the God of the bible. (my opinion)
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From what I understand; he is saying that, in order to be applied at the political level, an opinion must be translated into an universally acceptable argument.
If you want, the argument must have some universal merit (and hence be acceptable by everybody) rather than only grounded in religious value (and hence only acceptable by those within this particular religion).
If I say 'murder his illegal'. It can be based on the commandment (religious value) but it also translate. It is universally accpeted that human life has a value and should be protected.
If I say 'you should not eat shellfish' or 'you should not work on Sabbath'. These arguments have a religious value (it's its in the Leviticus) but not a universal value and, as such can not be used to draft public policies.
Nothing un-Christian in that that I can see.
Well; he does accepts non-believers and the Bible (Numbers 31) does mention that they should all be killed including women and children -well some freedom for younger females; not wanna waste some good booty-.
But, he would be accepted as some kind of Christian by most sects. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 06/11/2008 12:44:30 |
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Obama on religion
