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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 06/17/2008 : 16:47:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
| You have to make judgements and say "we have the right way of looking at things" and then impose your views on other peoples. |
Ah, the tired old "imposition of views" bit from ultra-conservatism. |
I got the impression he was borderline post-modernist... Can he be both that and ultra-conservatist at the same time?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 16:58:17 [Permalink]
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Depends on how you define the term, as suppose.
Which is somewhat ironic as post-modernism currents often do not trust definitions very much. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/17/2008 : 17:14:30 [Permalink]
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My personal favorite, as far as really remarkable infections is concerned, is the Guinea Worm. As mentioned in the link (it's an essay I wrote some time back when I was in a particularly bloody state of mind), the reason I like them so well is that I've never had one.
Parasites, notably endoparasites, are one of evolution's really remarkable accomplishments. Where else can you find mindless organisms that assume such control over others? Oh, yeah, well, there's religion, but that's another topic.
Evolution rocks! Unless you have a Guinea Worm or two; then you might lose some considerable enthusiasm.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 17:56:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
You are coming across as a bunch of bullies who are ganging up on one person who has rasied some questionable stuff to the 2000 or so people who have visited this thread. |
You can't even get the most-basic of facts correct. As I entered this thread to write this post, it had (coincidentally enough) 1,859 views. That number doesn't count people, just page hits. Some of them, for example, belong to Google bots. And two of the last few were mine as I viewed page 10 and then page 11.
But here's the thing: you came here to have an open discussion and challenge your own beliefs. What you've done puts the lie to those statements. So we might come across as bullying to an obvious liar. Maybe.
But asking (or even demanding) that you support your claims with evidence is bullying only to those who are dogmatically opposed to an open exchange of ideas and testing beliefs. It is clear that you refuse to support your beliefs because there is nothing to them. Just smoke and mirrors. If you dared to look behind your own curtain you would undoubtedly be very upset.
You had, as Dude remarked, a unique point of view at first, but you would not defend it, and instead of rebutting criticisms you did little more than ignore them. That turned your uniqueness into run-of-the-mill denial of reality. You're a dime-a-dozen evolution denier, and claiming that you're "questioning" the theory is nothing more than hubris.
Because the fact of the matter is that you don't know enough about evolutionary theory to question it with any effectiveness. As the old saying goes, you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. It's abundantly clear that you don't even know where the barn is. You're like a book reviewer who hasn't read the book, only other poor reviews of it.
If you want to question evolution, that would be fine, but first you've got to learn what evolution is and what it is not. To think outside the box, one first needs to know what's in the box.| If you want, go ahead and be a “Darwinian Zealots” and hang in there bad boys. |
I asked you to help me change my mind, at best I got snide remarks in response, and I'm a zealot? I couldn't even be described as a Darwinian. Your hypocrisy, apparently, knows no bounds.| ...in the end you will get what you deserve. |
I surely do hope we all do. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 18:01:52 [Permalink]
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| Nice stuff. I bet you don't feel better now. I think whatever is eating some of you is almost done. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 19:00:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Nice stuff. I bet you don't feel better now. I think whatever is eating some of you is almost done.
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I don't understand; are you trying to get shit-canned? If so, why? What would that accomplish for you?
You came here and recieved the same, warm welcome we give everyone, as everyone of every point of view is welcome. If you came to beard the dragon, that's cool. We enjoy the fray and as long as it is conducted by the rules of debate, the opposition will be treated with every courtsy & consideration. We return what we recieve, good or ill. You have flouted those rules from the very first page, and I, among others replied in kind.
You are 'way out of your depth in these waters. I strongly reccommend that you give evolution a study, if you must comment on it. You don't have to believe it, but that way you could at least discuss it with a little coherence.
Whether you go or stay, no matter. But I give you a word of advice: In all of your dealings, always be able to back up your assertions with factual reference lest you be labled a bullshitter. And when you find yourself on the losing end of the argument, accept it and find out where you got it wrong.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 20:11:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
If you want, go ahead and be a “Darwinian Zealots” and hang in there bad boys.
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But you have given us no reason to change our minds.
Originally posted by no1nose
I'm not here to change you but in the end you will get what you deserve.
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"The loving merciful benevolent God is going to send you for all eternity to a not so pleasant place." Now that's not a very nice thing to say or even think.
Originally posted by Simon
Thank you wikipedia.
Copy pasting definitions you don't understand doesn't actually fool anyone when you just failed basic reading comprehension.
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After catching up with this thread I got the impression that there were either two people posting as no1nose or that he was using ideas, without credit, from other sources. Perhaps he was doing some editing of source or combining of sources, or combining with his own thoughts. But as pointed out he never once showed anything but a vague understanding of his assertions and was certainly not equipped to support them.
However, I did find no1nose good at diversion and denial. Reality tends to disturb unquestioning faith necessitating mental gymnastics and mind games.
Why am I suddenly in the mood for a cup of coffee. Just can't get that image out of my head.  |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 20:26:20 [Permalink]
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| That would explain the unusual combination of post-modern existentialism and Christian fundamentalism that puzzled Dave and Mab a few posts back. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 20:47:05 [Permalink]
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moakley said:
| After catching up with this thread I got the impression that there were either two people posting as no1nose or that he was using ideas, without credit, from other sources. |
He is a cut/paste forum spammer. He's done this to other forums, with the exact same posts. So the possibility he is stealing his posts from yet another source is entirely possible.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 21:27:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I got the impression he was borderline post-modernist... Can he be both that and ultra-conservatist at the same time? |
I think he's stealing ideas from wherever he can get them, so long as they are contrary and underdog-ish. The combination makes him think he's a hero fighting against some persecuting cabal, but it's all in his head. You'll note it didn't take him long to whine about being ganged-up on, despite the fact that if he'd been more reasonable, not so many of us would be pointing out his obvious flaws. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 00:27:12 [Permalink]
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After that thrashing I'm feeling just a bit timid. But not enough to not say this:
I don't have a problem with the science that is associated with Evolution. But I do disagree with the idea that mutations are chance events. At the most basic level mutations are a result of quantum physics. So for me the changes in living things are caused by quantum outcomes that are observer determined. This scenario has, for me, a better fit in explaining the way life changes in the real world than the idea of chance mutations. |
| Edited by - no1nose on 06/18/2008 00:50:24 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 01:25:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
After that thrashing I'm feeling just a bit timid. But not enough to not say this:
I don't have a problem with the science that is associated with Evolution. |
Yes you do, the problem being you have no idea what science is associated with evolution.
| But I do disagree with the idea that mutations are chance events. |
What do you even mean here. When talking of mutations as chance events (random), this is always meant as random with respect to the environment where an organism lives in. Luria Delbruck already showed this to hold true in a number of experiments. So have others.
At the most basic level mutations are a result of quantum physics. So for me the changes in living things are caused by quantum outcomes that are observer determined. This scenario has, for me, a better fit in explaining the way life changes in the real world than the idea of chance mutations.
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It's a nice idea. It is also directly contradicted by the data we have. But, I'll give you it's a nice idea. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 02:43:24 [Permalink]
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| It is also directly contradicted by the data we have |
As far as I can tell no one has ever heard of the idea. So how can you have data that contradicts it? No pressure - just curious. |
| Edited by - no1nose on 06/18/2008 03:02:52 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 03:29:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
| It is also directly contradicted by the data we have |
As far as I can tell no one has ever heard of the idea. So how can you have data that contradicts it? No pressure - just curious.
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Mutations. All you have to do is look this stuff up. From Talk Origins:
"The cellular machinery that copies DNA sometimes makes mistakes. These mistakes alter the sequence of a gene. This is called a mutation. There are many kinds of mutations. A point mutation is a mutation in which one "letter" of the genetic code is changed to another. Lengths of DNA can also be deleted or inserted in a gene; these are also mutations. Finally, genes or parts of genes can become inverted or duplicated. Typical rates of mutation are between 10-10 and 10-12 mutations per base pair of DNA per generation.
Most mutations are thought to be neutral with regards to fitness. (Kimura defines neutral as |s| < 1/2Ne, where s is the selective coefficient and Ne is the effective population size.) Only a small portion of the genome of eukaryotes contains coding segments. And, although some non-coding DNA is involved in gene regulation or other cellular functions, it is probable that most base changes would have no fitness consequence.
Most mutations that have any phenotypic effect are deleterious. Mutations that result in amino acid substitutions can change the shape of a protein, potentially changing or eliminating its function. This can lead to inadequacies in biochemical pathways or interfere with the process of development. Organisms are sufficiently integrated that most random changes will not produce a fitness benefit. Only a very small percentage of mutations are beneficial. The ratio of neutral to deleterious to beneficial mutations is unknown and probably varies with respect to details of the locus in question and environment.
Mutation limits the rate of evolution. The rate of evolution can be expressed in terms of nucleotide substitutions in a lineage per generation. Substitution is the replacement of an allele by another in a population. This is a two step process: First a mutation occurs in an individual, creating a new allele. This allele subsequently increases in frequency to fixation in the population. The rate of evolution is k = 2Nvu (in diploids) where k is nucleotide substitutions, N is the effective population size, v is the rate of mutation and u is the proportion of mutants that eventually fix in the population."
Oh, yes, there is a little <gasp!> math in there! Who'da thunk?
[Edited to fix scientific notation, in blue above. Regards, Dr. Mabuse] |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 06/19/2008 05:57:46 |
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Darwin’s debt to Christianity
Topic Locked
