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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2008 : 14:55:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
| And, evolution, the observed change, is anything but direct. And it's not very quick either, even if fast evolving organisms such as bacteria make it look easy. |
A couple of years ago I read of a disease causing strain of bacteria that had arrived in two South American countries at the same time. One country had treated water and in a short time the strain of the bacteria became far less virulent but still remained active in the water supply. In the country with untreated water the same strain of bacteria remained virulent and was the cause of a number of deaths. What would be your explanation for this?
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Difficult to say without more informations.
Could be that random mutations allowed for a strain in country A to adapt itself to an aquatic environment.
In this case, the virulence genes, no longer being selected for, would have quickly devolved into a non-functional form.
It often happens when you cultivate microbes for too long on artificial medium (some vaccines are made that way).
The water treatment may, in the same time, have helped getting rid of the pathogenic strain.
The mutations being random, the strain in country B never produced this particular mutation and was not able to colonize the environment.
However, it did not need to as it still had an ecological niche; one that kept an evolutionary pressure on the virulence genes.
Looking at the strains' genomes will reveal notable differences between all three strains (Country A; Country B and Country C of origin).
It is also always possible that none of the strain underwent significant mutation and that the difference we observe is not due to phenotypic differences but difference in opportunity.
The treatment of the water might just be preventing the bacteria (I suspect an enterrobacteriaceae; probably E. coli but maybe some Salmonella) to infect people in high enough numbers to be pathogenic.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 15:24:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
| But in fact, statistics have been done and show us that the rate of mutation is very much what one would expect if they happened at random (here). |
Mutations may be random and beneficial changes conscious determined.
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No.
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2008 : 16:55:04 [Permalink]
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Didn't I post a link, a very good one, on mutations back around page 11? Yes, yes I did; this one: Mutations link.
Nobody likes to opens links, but to keep up with the topic, it's necessary. I suggest scrolling up and starting from the beginning.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 18:38:46 [Permalink]
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filthy, this guy isn't going to open any link we provide. I sent him to TO back in the beginning of this thread, followed shortly by you seconding the link. He just isn't interested.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2008 : 19:59:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
He just isn't interested. |
Or interesting, anymore. verlch's misogyny and paranoia at least kept one coming back for more. no1nose got "old hat" pretty quick, and is now resorting to "if things were different, they'd be different." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 04:09:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
filthy, this guy isn't going to open any link we provide. I sent him to TO back in the beginning of this thread, followed shortly by you seconding the link. He just isn't interested.
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Yeh..... I even dug out and posted my old parasites essay, which I thought was pretty good, as a well-referenced demonstration of evolution but I doubt if it recieved much of no1's attention. Ah well. You can lead a horse to water, but you know he'll make a mess in it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 07:04:54 [Permalink]
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It was a very interesting essay, by the way.
Is anyone familiar with the endosymbiosis theory?
Many organelles probably have started as some sort of parasitism and evolved to a level of perfect symbiosis... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 07:36:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
It was a very interesting essay, by the way.
Is anyone familiar with the endosymbiosis theory?
Many organelles probably have started as some sort of parasitism and evolved to a level of perfect symbiosis...
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Oh, there can be little doubt about it. Parasites have always gone cheek by jowl with their hosts, and evolution continues on. I think that the gut flora found in every complex organism is a perfect example.
Of course, many parasites, especally some endoparasites, are horribly destructive to their hosts, often killing them. Against all opinion and definition, I think of these as predators. That fuzzy line again, eh?
Screw worm infection. Often these infect the scrotum.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/19/2008 07:41:22 |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 12:33:12 [Permalink]
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I use this as a homepage: http://www.physorg.com/
Of course, many parasites, especally some endoparasites, are horribly destructive to their hosts, often killing them. Against all opinion and definition, I think of these as predators. That fuzzy line again, eh?
Screw worm infection. Often these infect the scrotum. |
Its called natural evil. Here is my take on life, the universe and all the big guestions.
For life as we know it there are three essential needs – air, water and food. Without air we die in minutes. At most we can live only a few days without water and without food a few weeks. Take the need to breathe. Both plants and animals need air. But instead of competing with each other for air to breathe, plants and animals complement and benefit one another. Plants breathe in carbon dioxide and breathe out oxygen. Animals breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide. In using air, each one produces what the other needs. The relationship between plants and animals is symbiotic – each one complements the other in a relationship that benefits both.
Living things need water. But unlike air, water has only one ingredient and both plants and animals need water itself. Yet the use for this vital need is still a model of cooperation. Plants and animals do not compete against each other for water. Plants take water from under the ground where it is not usually available for use by animals. Animals take water from the surface of lakes and streams that are not generally sources for plants. Also, the use of water by plants benefits animals by influencing the climate to produce rain. And the use of water by animals benefits plants by adding nutrients to the soil.
The third need for life is food. Here it would seem natural for the cooperation seen in air and water to continue. Nothing has to die for us to breathe and nothing must die for us to drink water. But here the cooperation in the natural world breaks down. Food is different. While we can find remnants of cooperation between living things for the most part something must die for something else to eat. Most people accept as normal, after all we live in a dog eat dog world. But why is food different from air and water; why is it that something must die for there to be food for another?
It appears that there has been a breakdown in the natural order of the universe, both on earth and in the skies above. On one hand the universe was created with the precise exactness that is necessary to support life. But on the other hand the amount of life in the universe that wasted must cause us to question. Would a man build a fine stadium that could seat fifty thousand people and then allow only one seat in the stadium to be used?
When we look to the stars we see the vastness of empty space. The universe expands into nothingness with a highly uncertain future. When we look on earth we see the exact opposite. On earth there is a critical shortage of space for life. If life was meant to be as well designed as the physical universe then something catastrophic has gone wrong.
One can marvel at the miracle of life that is contained in just one seed. Could man build anything as wondrous as a seed? Truly this is precisely engineered work of God. Something made by God with such care surely was not meant to go to waste.
In the book of Genesis we are told the order in which God created the universe. His work was good and perfect. Then on the sixth day God opened door to mankind make choices that would determine the future of all life. We often hear of the Ten Commandants but this is that very first commandment given to mankind and therefore the most important.
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the bir |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 12:35:15 [Permalink]
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 12:42:29 [Permalink]
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Thanks Nose, but thats just a cut and paste of some crap you posted 3 years ago.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2030
Ever going to actually respond TO US? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 12:48:00 [Permalink]
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| Thanks Nose, but thats just a cut and paste of some crap you posted 3 years ago. |
There's new stuff there and beside I don't think you have hread this point of view before. If we are going to talk it might help if you know where I am coming from. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 12:57:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
I use this as a homepage: http://www.physorg.com/
Its called natural evil. Here is my take on life, the universe and all the big guestions.
For life as we know it there are three essential needs – air, water and food. Without air we die in minutes. At most we can live only a few days without water and without food a few weeks. Take the need to breathe. Both plants and animals need air. But instead of competing with each other for air to breathe, plants and animals complement and benefit one another. Plants breathe in carbon dioxide and breathe out oxygen. Animals breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide. In using air, each one produces what the other needs. The relationship between plants and animals is symbiotic – each one complements the other in a relationship that benefits both.
Living things need water. But unlike air, water has only one ingredient and both plants and animals need water itself. Yet the use for this vital need is still a model of cooperation. Plants and animals do not compete against each other for water. Plants take water from under the ground where it is not usually available for use by animals. Animals take water from the surface of lakes and streams that are not generally sources for plants. Also, the use of water by plants benefits animals by influencing the climate to produce rain. And the use of water by animals benefits plants by adding nutrients to the soil.
The third need for life is food. Here it would seem natural for the cooperation seen in air and water to continue. Nothing has to die for us to breathe and nothing must die for us to drink water. But here the cooperation in the natural world breaks down. Food is different. While we can find remnants of cooperation between living things for the most part something must die for something else to eat. Most people accept as normal, after all we live in a dog eat dog world. But why is food different from air and water; why is it that something must die for there to be food for another?
It appears that there has been a breakdown in the natural order of the universe, both on earth and in the skies above. On one hand the universe was created with the precise exactness that is necessary to support life. But on the other hand the amount of life in the universe that wasted must cause us to question. Would a man build a fine stadium that could seat fifty thousand people and then allow only one seat in the stadium to be used?
When we look to the stars we see the vastness of empty space. The universe expands into nothingness with a highly uncertain future. When we look on earth we see the exact opposite. On earth there is a critical shortage of space for life. If life was meant to be as well designed as the physical universe then something catastrophic has gone wrong.
One can marvel at the miracle of life that is contained in just one seed. Could man build anything as wondrous as a seed? Truly this is precisely engineered work of God. Something made by God with such care surely was not meant to go to waste.
In the book of Genesis we are told the order in which God created the universe. His work was good and perfect. Then on the sixth day God opened door to mankind make choices that would determine the future of all life. We often hear of the Ten Commandants but this is that very first commandment given to mankind and therefore the most important.
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 13:20:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Its called natural evil. Here is my take on life, the universe and all the big guestions.
[snip] |
Old-fashioned Christian apology which was never very convincing. These ideas are many decades old, and supported by nothing but the self-contradictory Bible. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 13:23:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
...I don't think you have hread this point of view before. |
You flatter yourself.| If we are going to talk it might help if you know where I am coming from. |
It might help more if you'd simply answer the questions put to you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Darwin’s debt to Christianity
Topic Locked
