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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2008 : 14:20:12 [Permalink]
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Just a quick question... how come this God; infinitely smart and wise and powerful... how come he does not come back and fix this mess?
Or at least; how come he did not have a back-up plan?
And; many bacteria do not need to breath.
And; nobody being eaten is not enough for death 'not to exist'. Disease; old age...
And... well I am not going to refute your assay point by point. Let just say that I am unconvinced to say the least. |
Good questions quick answer to some of it is that there was no disorder in the Garden. It is interesting to note that the word "accident" does not occur even once in the entire Bible. And that there are very few of what we call accidents that happen in all of its recorded history.
Originally posted by no1nose
...I don't think you have hread this point of view before.
You flatter yourself. |
I think that I can claim the idea that the "fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" didn't have a seed. And that the story of the Garden of Eden is mostly about food as "new" (to you at least).
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 15:00:40 [Permalink]
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Provide support for the list of assertions you have made. As for your imbecilic and rehashed apologetics... get real. That crap was stupid the first time it was ever uttered, and you have done nothing but regurgitate it. Not an original though in your empty little head, is there?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 15:25:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
One can marvel at the miracle of life that is contained in just one seed. Could man build anything as wondrous as a seed? Truly this is precisely engineered work of God.
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Describe the mechanism employed by god to create this seed.
Originally posted by no1nose
In the book of Genesis we are told the order in which God created the universe. His work was good and perfect. Then on the sixth day God opened door to mankind make choices that would determine the future of all life.
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Free will. I don't believe that free will exists until you gain the knowledge necessary. Eating from the tree of knowledge was motivated by that other fellow.
Originally posted by no1nose
Foremost in God's mind at the creation was the importance of and the increase of mankind and as well a other life.
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You presume to know the mind of God? Personally I don't think God really knew what he wanted.
Originally posted by no1nose
These commands assume there would be enough room for all of mankind to fit upon the face of the earth.
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Then God's judgement on what mankind would require was flawed. Hardly something I would expect from a perfect being.
But of course things went terribly wrong when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. This trees very existence is another mistake made by God. Unless the fall of man was not an option. Assuming that god has perfect knowledge then all these garden events went according to his script. So much for free will.
Originally posted by no1nose
The Lord said . . . "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live. " Exodus 33:20
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God is seen. GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1
Depending on what point you wish to make there is something for every occassion in the bible.
Originally posted by no1nose
Life in the Garden consisted only of good food, companionship and communion with God.
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By this essay are you suggesting that the Garden of Eden story was an historical event?
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 06/19/2008 15:28:39 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 15:48:08 [Permalink]
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No1nose, what would really help this discussion along is you answering the points below, instead of bringing up all kind of new stuff before you have discussed the old stuff.
Originally posted by Dave W.
* ...a culturally based epistemology that works as well as science for learning about our world.
* ...evidence that had some other culture come up with evolution, it would somehow be different.
* ...that the theory of evolution lacks a mathematical foundation.
* ...that the theory of evolution cannot be empirically verified.
* ...that "many words have been written about the differences between evolution and Christianity."
* ...your probability calculation for determining that the alleged parallels between evolution and Christianity are not coincidence.
* ...that people who can only think "linearly" could ever come up with an equation including an r2 term.
* ...that the space between electron shells in an atom is "forever empty."
* ...that past history is a good indicator of the future of evolutionary theory.
* ...that part of your motivation for posting here is to test your own beliefs in an open forum.
* ...that "Evolution is simply an idea in some people's minds and not the reality of the natural world."
* ...that biological extinction is an apt parallel with Christianity's Hell.
* ...that evolutionary theory "is a nothing more than a world view."
* ...that you "have raised the question of where Darwin got his ideas as a serious issue."
* ...that you "have shown the clear parallels between Christian and Evolutionary scenarios."
* ...that defending evolution means one defends Christianity.
* ...that if everyone became like Jesus there would be no death or sickness or war.
* ...that evolution "is about the survival of the fittest."
* ...that "many social evils follow naturally from the theory of evolution core ideas."
* ...that "Evolution is presented as a complete description of nature."
* ...that "Darwin just filled in the gaps with a bit of twisted christianity."
* ...that you are "making some valid points."
* ...another "theory of life" that competes with evolutionary theory?
* ...anyone here saying that evolution is correct because you're a hypocrite.
* ...that the "observer" of quantum physics acts as you say.
* ...that Relativity requires an "observer."
* ...that "the Theory of Evolution has no provision for the role of an observer."
* ...that evolution asserts that changes will be "random."
* ...that there is a trend towards "beauty" in the "natural world."
It is noted that no1nose is yet again steering clear of all this....
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edited to add: And please leave your apologetics behind. It's not new, it's not original, it's extremely boring and it's stupid even for general standards of apologetics. I've had better than what you have to offer, and that wasn't worth much. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 06/19/2008 15:51:51 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2008 : 17:46:31 [Permalink]
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I think that the Garden of Eden story is a lovely one, at least until God gets his ugly on. I've heard that it is told in Sunday School more than any other. It's ultimate moral, of course, is that one should pay attention the the rules of society lest he/she gets tossed out on his/her ass. Or worse.
But unless you accept that for which there is no empirical evidence, the supernatural, it was told as an allegory and remains one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 18:01:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
I think that I can claim the idea that the "fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" didn't have a seed. And that the story of the Garden of Eden is mostly about food as "new" (to you at least). |
But so what? Attempts to make the Genesis stories make some sort of sense are a dime a dozen, and they all assume the same wrong thing: that Genesis is something other than a metaphor. And extrabiblical apologetics of the sort you're engaged in have been with us since before Genesis was written down.
If you really want to claim the "seed" and "food" things as yours, have at it if it makes you feel better. They're clearly based upon the naturalistic fallacy, wish fulfillment, hasty generalizations and a whole bunch of cherry-picking. Is that what you wanted us to learn about you? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 18:50:40 [Permalink]
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| But so what? Attempts to make the Genesis stories make some sort of sense are a dime a dozen |
Go on and read it. It won't hurt you. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 19:00:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Go on and read it. It won't hurt you. |
Read what? Genesis? Did so. Your apologetics? Did so. Were you expecting people to have an epiphany?
(Edited to make my meaning clearer.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 20:57:45 [Permalink]
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| Read what? Genesis? Did so. Your apologetics? Did so. Were you expecting people to have an epiphany? |
| And please leave your apologetics behind. It's not new, it's not original, it's extremely boring and it's stupid even for general standards of apologetics. I've had better than what you have to offer, and that wasn't worth much. |
What am I suppose to do? Lash out at you guys. No, I don't think so. I don't think you are saying anything more than what some other people think but are too polite to say. The curse of being so direct probably much harder to bear then anything I could ever dream of saying. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 21:01:13 [Permalink]
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Support your assertions with evidence and sound argument?
I know that is nothing you are capable of, but you should make an effort to learn.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 22:15:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
What am I suppose to do? |
You're supposed to do what you said you wanted to do.
If you want to open our minds, you'll need to support your assertions, because your say-so isn't good enough (especially when no small part of what you've said is demonstrably wrong).
If you want to have your own beliefs challenged, you'll have to engage our criticisms instead of just handwaving them away with a "duh."
What you've done so far is make unbelievable pronouncements and you've rejected (with obvious prejudice) all serious attempts at discussion. You are, of course, free to do so, but we (the staff here) aren't under any obligation to give you a soapbox from which to display your personality disorders.
What happens next is up to you. It's your choice to make. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 00:02:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
What am I suppose to do?
You're supposed to do what you said you wanted to do.
Support your assertions with evidence and sound argument? |
This was simply a rhetorical question. As far as supporting my assertions this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I have let you carry on for some time because I can't be bothered to count and list yours. Give me something real and I will respond to it. So far it just smoke and mirrors from you guys and a bit of hand waving too.
Originally posted by no1nose
The Lord said . . . "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live. " Exodus 33:20
God is seen. GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1
Depending on what point you wish to make there is something for every occassion in the bible. |
GE 12:7 reads "The Lord appeared to Abram" It is not pedantic to say this is not the same as "face to face". |
| Edited by - no1nose on 06/20/2008 00:58:36 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 02:14:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Originally posted by no1nose
What am I suppose to do?
You're supposed to do what you said you wanted to do.
Support your assertions with evidence and sound argument? |
This was simply a rhetorical question. As far as supporting my assertions this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I have let you carry on for some time because I can't be bothered to count and list yours. Give me something real and I will respond to it. So far it just smoke and mirrors from you guys and a bit of hand waving too. |
But everything people have stated here has been supported. If you need support for anything else, feel free to ask and I will be happy to try and supply it. But, you'll have to read it (which you so far didn't with the things that have been supplied to you) and you have to return the honors by support your own arguments. Like these:
* ...a culturally based epistemology that works as well as science for learning about our world.
* ...evidence that had some other culture come up with evolution, it would somehow be different.
* ...that the theory of evolution lacks a mathematical foundation.
* ...that the theory of evolution cannot be empirically verified.
* ...that "many words have been written about the differences between evolution and Christianity."
* ...your probability calculation for determining that the alleged parallels between evolution and Christianity are not coincidence.
* ...that people who can only think "linearly" could ever come up with an equation including an r2 term.
* ...that the space between electron shells in an atom is "forever empty."
* ...that past history is a good indicator of the future of evolutionary theory.
* ...that part of your motivation for posting here is to test your own beliefs in an open forum.
* ...that "Evolution is simply an idea in some people's minds and not the reality of the natural world."
* ...that biological extinction is an apt parallel with Christianity's Hell.
* ...that evolutionary theory "is a nothing more than a world view."
* ...that you "have raised the question of where Darwin got his ideas as a serious issue."
* ...that you "have shown the clear parallels between Christian and Evolutionary scenarios."
* ...that defending evolution means one defends Christianity.
* ...that if everyone became like Jesus there would be no death or sickness or war.
* ...that evolution "is about the survival of the fittest."
* ...that "many social evils follow naturally from the theory of evolution core ideas."
* ...that "Evolution is presented as a complete description of nature."
* ...that "Darwin just filled in the gaps with a bit of twisted christianity."
* ...that you are "making some valid points."
* ...another "theory of life" that competes with evolutionary theory?
* ...anyone here saying that evolution is correct because you're a hypocrite.
* ...that the "observer" of quantum physics acts as you say.
* ...that Relativity requires an "observer."
* ...that "the Theory of Evolution has no provision for the role of an observer."
* ...that evolution asserts that changes will be "random."
* ...that there is a trend towards "beauty" in the "natural world."
So hop to it. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 03:23:25 [Permalink]
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This was simply a rhetorical question. As far as supporting my assertions this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I have let you carry on for some time because I can't be bothered to count and list yours. Give me something real and I will respond to it. So far it just smoke and mirrors from you guys and a bit of hand waving too.
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Say what?! No, no, no1, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle empty. The collective pot has gone to some lengths to provide you, kettle, with the best information available, heavily backed by reference, and all if it you have refused to give the slightest consideration. As far as I can tell, you have yet to open any link that has been provided you.
The only hand-waving around here has been yours. The only unsupported statements have been yours. The only lame apologetics have been yours. The only unanswered questions have been ours....
But I am a generous sort of a pot; here is another link. I strongly reccommend that you study it and act upon it accordingly, as it will make your dealings here, and indeed in life, a lot easier. | "The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time." ~~ Richard Nixon |
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 04:49:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by no1nose
The Lord said . . . "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live. " Exodus 33:20
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God is seen. GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1
Depending on what point you wish to make there is something for every occassion in the bible.
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GE 12:7 reads "The Lord appeared to Abram" It is not pedantic to say this is not the same as "face to face".
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"Splitting hairs" comes to mind.
I should not have engaged you and your essay as I did. Especially considering the number of assertions that you either need to support or admit that you were wrong. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Darwin’s debt to Christianity
Topic Locked
