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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 04:56:51 [Permalink]
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Well, I've posted a reply over there. That site seems to have a good track record in publishing what people say, but just in case:
Stan, to say that an atheist "denies god" is baloney. That's saying that they actually believe in god but don't want to.
Guess what? That's not the case. If you think it is, the onus is on you to show it; something you have not done here.
As to us having to provide "material" proof that god does not exist? <i>Do people ask for "material proof" that unicorns and fairies don't exist when confronted with someone who doesn't believe in them</i>??
For someone who claims to have been an atheist for forty years one would think you'd have thought about that.
I guess that claim is just another thing you said that isn't true.
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The fact that there are 30,000 different religions all saying "those other guys are wrong" is one of the reasons why I'm an atheist. |
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2008 : 05:48:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Robb:
You and most people would create a God like this. One that you feel good with and does not ask you to change your behaviour. |
Nonsense. Read it again. What I said is that my God would care much more about my behavior than my worship...
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Do you think that most people would like a god like yours? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 06:02:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Robb, provide me some evidence that your bible is anoything other than stories written by bronze age desert nomads and fiction-propaganda drafted by those with a grudge against Rome.
Sure, this is a bit off the main topic, but it drives to the heart of the matter. What good reason is there to believe your "good book" is what you claim it to be?
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I cannot provide you with any evidence that you have not seen before on this forum. You have decided to reject it. I wish you would reconsider but that is your choice. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 06:10:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Do you think that most people would like a god like yours?
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Regardless of whether they would like such a God, most times that I have seen that question answered, the God people come up with resembles the God Kil came up with. One that values actions towards others and oneself instead of belief in God.
Personally, I don't think whether I would particularly like such a God. Just as I don't particularly like the police. But at least such a God would be just. Such a god would not be the random punisher thought up by most religions, including Christianity. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 06:29:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Besides, did Jesus fulfill the old law or not, Robb? |
Yes he did.
Matt 5:17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Jesus was referring to the Old Testament when he said “Law or the Prophets”. Other verses like Mt 1:22-23, Mt 2:14-15, Mt 8:17, Jn 19:28-29 indicate that he meant that he completed the Law and Prophets. Which he certainly did.
| So Jesus knows that any woman I might look lustfully upon is already married? Huh. |
Jesus does not say that she has to be married but that lusting after a woman is just like committing adultery. He is upping the standard of behavior. A lust filled heart is a sin.
| And I'm an only child, I have no brothers to be angry with. |
Please. All over the New Testament when people were addressing crowds they referred to them as brothers, even the women.
But what you're really telling me is that while the old laws may (or may not) have been fulfilled, Jesus imposed new, much more strict laws. Instead of prohibitions against adultery and murder, we now have prohibitions against lust and anger.
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Yes. He is trying to get you to understand how you have broken all of Gods laws physically or in your heart. He is letting you know why you need a savior.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 06:49:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
Repentence is essential, Jesus said without it no one is saved.
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That is contradicting to John 3:16 and Rome 10:9.
Those verses says you only need to believe in Jesus to be saved, repentence not required. Of course, they do not explicitly say repentence not required, but they say in no uncertain terms that belief in Jesus is enough.
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In my thermodynamics book it talks about describing a gas using the ideal gas law. When you go further on in the text you see that the ideal gas law does not accurately describe a gasses state in most instances. Later it tells you how to correct for this. Would it be right for me to only tell people that the ideal gas law completely describes that state of a gas without also telling them about the other text on the subject even though it is written by the author? Same applies for the Bible. If you believe it to be true then you collect all the information and then form a theology based on what it says as a whole. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2008 : 06:54:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
He is letting you know why you need a savior. |
What a stroke of luck that "he" provided us with that then. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 06:59:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Robb
Do you think that most people would like a god like yours?
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Regardless of whether they would like such a God, most times that I have seen that question answered, the God people come up with resembles the God Kil came up with. One that values actions towards others and oneself instead of belief in God.
Personally, I don't think whether I would particularly like such a God. Just as I don't particularly like the police. But at least such a God would be just. Such a god would not be the random punisher thought up by most religions, including Christianity.
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How can a God be good and just if punishment for breaking his law goes unpunished? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 07:25:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Robb
You must have been reading The Shack.
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Should I assume that you are talking about a Bed and Breakfast in Jugville, Michigan. And that you meant "staying at" instead of "reading". It's more likely that you are talking about The Shack by William Young which I am not at all familiar with.
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I was making a lighthearted reference to the book. The author refers to God the father as "Papa" an african american woman. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 07:55:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
How can a God be good and just if punishment for breaking his law goes unpunished? |
When the law is arbitrary, brutal and egocentric, then it isn't "good and just" law.
A god along the lines of the one Kil has described would obviously have different laws than the Christian capricious bully, who you have made clear thinks that all of His creations are unworthy unless they turn off the brain that He's given them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 08:18:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
[quote]How can a God be good and just if punishment for breaking his law goes unpunished?
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For a God to be good and just, his laws have to be good and just instead of arbitrary. A legal system is as fair and just as its laws are. Requiring belief in a certain deity when the evidence in favor for that deity is far from clear, is neither good nor just. Especially if belief in that deity arbitrarily becomes the only criterium used for judgment. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 08:31:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
How can a God be good and just if punishment for breaking his law goes unpunished? |
When the law is arbitrary, brutal and egocentric, then it isn't "good and just" law.
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If God does not exist then are not all laws arbitrary? What basis do you say that killing someone for stealing a paperclip is wrong? Your reason, whatever it is comes from your mind and only your mind. Why should that apply to everybody? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 08:32:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Robb
[quote]How can a God be good and just if punishment for breaking his law goes unpunished?
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For a God to be good and just, his laws have to be good and just instead of arbitrary. A legal system is as fair and just as its laws are. Requiring belief in a certain deity when the evidence in favor for that deity is far from clear, is neither good nor just. Especially if belief in that deity arbitrarily becomes the only criterium used for judgment.
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How do you define what good and just laws are? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 09:45:32 [Permalink]
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Robb:
How do you define what good and just laws are? |
How do you define what good and just laws are? If you were God, would you condemn people to an eternal punishment for the crime of not believing in you, no matter how they have behaved in life? Would you require that people believe in and worship you as the number one criteria for getting into heaven? Could you be that evil, and if not, why do you give God a pass?
It makes me laugh when I hear someone say that morality is derived from the bible, because the absolute bottom line lesson from the bible is so hideously immoral. Just how many of the meek are burning in hell forever because they looked at a woman's ass and didn't repent?
"Sorry lord. Sorry sorry sorry. Forgive me for being as you made me. I should burn forever in a lake of fire if my eye's wander and I get hit by a bus before I can repent. Sorry sorry sorry. I'm so bad and you're so good. Forgive me lord for being born a sinner, even though it wasn't my idea. And you deserve nothing but a big thank you for that. You're the man! Oh, and thanks for sending your son to take the bullet for me. That must have really hurt. I'm glad that he survived to become the fine print. Thanks for that one and only way out of eternal damnation. I'm so bad and you're so good. Sorry sorry sorry..."
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 09:48:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
How do you define what good and just laws are?
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By looking at the consequences of the behavior they prohibit and by looking at whether the punishment for it is proportional to the consequences of breaking that law. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Debating religious types, good and bad arguments
