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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:10:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dude
Laws are, in our society, (supposed to be) based on enforcing the greatest common good. |
Actually, that makes them not arbitrary, but gives them a presumably empirical basis. And if the laws are subject to modification based upon empirical data of their effects, all the better (less arbitrary).
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Do you think that good is based on what most people think to be good? If so, would it be good to kill someone for a peperclip if most thought that was OK? or is this always wrong? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:10:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Robb
How do you define what good and just laws are?
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By looking at the consequences of the behavior they prohibit and by looking at whether the punishment for it is proportional to the consequences of breaking that law.
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Sounds great. I define laws as good and just as any law that is in the best interest of Mickey Mouse. Why is your definition better than mine?
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Because defining a law in such a way is not looking in any way at the consequences on the people it should govern, but at a fantasy figure?
I don't see where you are going with this. Either the basis of laws is arbitrary. In that case, this goes for "God's law" just as well and we might as well take our own.
Or, laws do have a fundamental basis. In that case, we can discover that basis for ourselves and positing a God won't help a bit. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:18:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Robb
How do you define what good and just laws are?
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By looking at the consequences of the behavior they prohibit and by looking at whether the punishment for it is proportional to the consequences of breaking that law.
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Sounds great. I define laws as good and just as any law that is in the best interest of Mickey Mouse. Why is your definition better than mine?
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What is there about your Mickey Mouse laws that would be best for the country, state, county, city? Secular laws are designed to allow us to function better as a whole. Mickey Mouse and God laws are pretty much left to the individual. Disobeying a God law, especially the ones that require worship, does not have any evident consequences from my perspective. So it appears that even disobeying a God law is an individual thing and does no harm to society. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:31:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dude
Laws are, in our society, (supposed to be) based on enforcing the greatest common good. |
Actually, that makes them not arbitrary, but gives them a presumably empirical basis. And if the laws are subject to modification based upon empirical data of their effects, all the better (less arbitrary).
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Do you think that good is based on what most people think to be good? If so, would it be good to kill someone for a peperclip if most thought that was OK? or is this always wrong?
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I'd say that it would depend upon the paperclip and the situation. You're trying to go black & white and that rarely works in this world. It's all grey in one shade or another.
Example: Idiot breaks into my house and attempts to steal a paperclip that has been documented to have been used by Hammurabi (yeah, yeah cuneformist, I know) and is a priceless artifact. Further, idiot is armed and tweaked: Idiot, meet Mr. Mossberg; Mossy, this here is the corpse formerly known as Idiot.
See what I'm saying?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:51:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
What is there about your Mickey Mouse laws that would be best for the country, state, county, city? |
Cause confusion and chaos. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 07:01:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Do you think that good is based on what most people think to be good? |
Do you know nothing about ethics, Robb? I suppose that with the Bible as a guide, you are at a big disadvantage, because you never have to even think about justifying any moral precept, it's a simple matter of "God said it's good, therefore it's good, period." People without such a handy guide need to make sure that the basis for their morality makes sense and isn't unreasonably flawed from the start. "It's good because most people think it's good" is a pure argument from popularity, and would result in some fairly massive travesties. For example, in the U.S. under such a basis, evolutionary theory would have to be thought of as evil, regardless of its scientific standing and the fact that it is not prescriptive.| If so, would it be good to kill someone for a peperclip if most thought that was OK? or is this always wrong? |
The Bible isn't black-and-white, Robb (witness God ordering the wholesale slaughter of children), so why do you think other people's morals should be?
You also wrote:| In all of this it is still your brain telling you what is right and wrong and good and bad. Why do you think that what your brain tells you is more valid than what my brain tells me about right and wrong and good and bad? |
Because your only justification for morality is that a fictitious character told you what's right and what's wrong (and I'm not talking about Mickey Mouse), and specifically because that authority figure says that it is wrong to question his judgement on such matters. People looking for a rational basis for morality, on the other hand, would reject such nonsense and also test ethical ideas with each other (morals are a social construct, not individual) through discussion and/or experimentation, and then accept what works and throw away what doesn't. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 08:05:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by moakley
What is there about your Mickey Mouse laws that would be best for the country, state, county, city? |
Cause confusion and chaos.
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Yes and I went on to compare the Mickey Mouse laws with your God laws. In a secular society with secular laws interpretation of God laws is up to the individual. Lack of adherence to God laws does no harm to how a secular society works. Only in a theocrazy does a lack of adherence to God laws have consequences and the individual get punished. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 08:03:08 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
Jesus says you have:
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Mt :28
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Robb... I'm single, never been married.
So tell me, how is it that I have committed adultery if I look at a woman and think "lustful" thoughts?
I've never killed another human being. How can I be guilty of murder?
I have never created an idol of any deity.
I have never put any deities "before" the christian one...(they all get equal scorn from me)
I have never "falsely witnessed" against another person.
So really, if you have actually done those things, what kind of person are you? (and if you have murdered, why are you not in prison?)
Your assertion that everyone has broken "all" of your gods asinine laws is, well, stupid.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 11:06:14 [Permalink]
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Going back to the name of this thread, “Debating religious types, good and bad arguments” the bottom line is that if there is an expectation that a rational argument will prevail, think again. For example, Robb supports his argument by using the bible as the only source that really matters. If you start with an absolute belief that the bible is infallible, all other arguments fail, and especially those arguments that question the fallibility of the bible. At least for Robb and those who think like him, critical thinking has no relevance as a tool in this area, because you can't reason away that which reason was never even a consideration. Bible=Truth, and that's that.
So there is the rub. Same as it ever was…
I accepted a challenge and took an irrational leap. I have an inquiring mind and an openness to question my own beliefs. My worldview may have crumbled and I might have become a different person. But if you want to get close to any kind of truth, you have to be willing to test yourself.
Perhaps it's easier to try the irrational on if your starting point comes from reason. After all, doubt is the motivator for inquiry. Certainty leaves no room for experimentation. It leaves no room for doubt. It leaves no room for the consideration of anything because certainty is the end of reason. If you are in possession of an absolute truth, were is there to go?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 11:35:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Robb said:
Jesus says you have:
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Mt :28
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Robb... I'm single, never been married.
So tell me, how is it that I have committed adultery if I look at a woman and think "lustful" thoughts? |
All I am repeating is christian theology from the Bible. Jesus equates lustful thoughts with adultry. I take this to be sexual thoughts without regard to the person you are lusting after. Only sexual gratifivatuion at the expense of the other person.
| I've never killed another human being. How can I be guilty of murder? |
Again Jesus says that being angry at another preson is equal to murdering them in Gods eyes. You have murdered in your heart.
| I have never created an idol of any deity. |
The commandment is not to worship the idols. I would say that there is something that you adore or regard in high esteem that is not god.
| I have never put any deities "before" the christian one...(they all get equal scorn from me) |
Idols are gods.
| I have never "falsely witnessed" against another person. |
You have never lied about what someone else did? Even as a child?
| So really, if you have actually done those things, what kind of person are you? (and if you have murdered, why are you not in prison?) |
I am just like everyone else.
| Your assertion that everyone has broken "all" of your gods asinine laws is, well, stupid. |
I would disagree. Most people have:
Worshipped false Gods including Idols.(money, cars, electronics, education etc.)
Made idols. (money, cars, people etc.)
misused the name of god.
kept the sabbath holy
dishonored your mother or father
was angry at people without real cause
lusted
lied about someone else
coveted
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 11:52:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
...because you can't reason away that which reason was never even a consideration. |
This is part of what I was saying over here, and I think it's overly simplistic (to the point of being wrong).
We do have, after all, individual conversion stories which run along the lines of "I was devout until I realized that my pastor was lying to me about one little thing, but from then on I had more and more problems reconciling what I knew to be true with what the Bible says, until the day I just threw my Bible in the trash." I've seen lots of those sorts of tales scattered all over the Web and in print.
Now, it may be the case that you can't force a person to be reasonable, but it's clear that people can (and do) use reason to get out from under beliefs that they didn't reason their way into. As I said in that other thread, I think it's well past time that skeptics quit using the feel-good quip of "you can't reason a person out of beliefs they didn't reason into" (or words to that effect).
That said, Sastra at Pharyngula pointed out this morning:In science, as in debate, dissent must be met by beginning on common ground and carefully leading the critic step by step to a different conclusion - and being willing to do the same thing oneself. Due to the fact that Robb accepts the Bible as a reliable authority, while most of the rest of us here do not, we fail to begin on common ground. Robb actually took a step towards the common ground with his post back here when he said "If God does not exist..." because it showed that he was willing to entertain what is (for him) a counterfactual.
Unfortunately, this debate will necessarily be one-sided unless Robb has something more compelling than "the Bible says so," because we already know that argument, and have seen that it leads nowhere. Even more-sophisticated arguments that justify God's authority do so on the assumption that God exists, which we reject as a premise.
So either Robb will have to continue to walk in our shoes, and try to learn why it is that ethics that aren't handed down from an ultimate authority can still be valid, or this will, indeed, go nowhere. It's all on his shoulders, not because he cannot be reasoned out of the belief he has now, but because he can. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 11:56:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
| Your assertion that everyone has broken "all" of your gods asinine laws is, well, stupid. |
I would disagree. Most people have:
Worshipped false Gods including Idols.(money, cars, electronics, education etc.)
Made idols. (money, cars, people etc.)
misused the name of god.
kept the sabbath holy
dishonored your mother or father
was angry at people without real cause
lusted
lied about someone else
coveted |
Here we go with the commandments again. If you're going to count the first ten as sins, why not the next few hundred? What did it even mean for Jesus to "fulfill" the law?
Also, you're stretching the meaning of "worship." I mean like silly-putty stretching. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 12:10:18 [Permalink]
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Dave:
We do have, after all, individual conversion stories which run along the lines of "I was devout until I realized that my pastor was lying to me about one little thing, but from then on I had more and more problems reconciling what I knew to be true with what the Bible says, until the day I just threw my Bible in the trash." I've seen lots of those sorts of tales scattered all over the Web and in print.
Now, it may be the case that you can't force a person to be reasonable, but it's clear that people can (and do) use reason to get out from under beliefs that they didn't reason their way into. As I said in that other thread, I think it's well past time that skeptics quit using the feel-good quip of "you can't reason a person out of beliefs they didn't reason into" (or words to that effect). |
Oh yeah, I understand that that happens. It's our best reason to keep on arguing. But we can't really expect the person we are arguing with to just up and say “Hey, you're absolutely right. Why didn't I think of that” which is one of the things that I am talking about in the post. If you look at what I wrote again, you will see that I was also issuing a challenge to Robb to consider a little critical thinking on his part.
I'm not suggesting that we give up. I was just pointing out the difficulties of getting through…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/14/2008 : 12:27:57 [Permalink]
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I would disagree. Most people have:
Worshipped false Gods including Idols.(money, cars, electronics, education etc.)
Made idols. (money, cars, people etc.)
misused the name of god.
kept the sabbath holy
dishonored your mother or father
was angry at people without real cause
lusted
lied about someone else
coveted
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You betcha! I bust hell out of the first four on a daily basis. But I worship nothing and the closest I come to making an idol is putting together old Harley Davidson motorcycles, but we can count it for both if you like.
My father's long dead and I never knew him well enough to disrespect him. My mother too, is dead, and I never had anything but respect for her.
I get furious at a lot of people; define "real cause."
I lust; who still drawing breath doesn't?
I rarely feel the need to lie; the truth serves my purposes quite well enough. Pass that one on to Answers in Genesis, the Institute for Creation Research & the Discovery Institute. They lie, blatently, all the time although they're not as good at it as they think they are (or wish they were). I would include most if not all of the big-name, mega-preachers in that as well. Tell 'em I sent you... 
As for coveting, I take that to mean desiring what I can't have. Sure, of course I do. But I get over it -- that's just part of being an adult.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 12:41:03 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
The commandment is not to worship the idols. I would say that there is something that you adore or regard in high esteem that is not god.
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I worship nothing. What you seem to be saying is that if you have any regard, at all, for anything or anyone else in your life other than god... you are guilty of idolatry and putting another god before god. Absurd.
I also reject the idiotic idea that lust = adultery. Without lust the human race would be extinct in a generation. Lust is the motivator to "go forth and multiply".
In addition, I reject the idea that anger = murder. And so do you. I KNOW I have made you angry in the past, at least a little, yet you have never apologized to me for your murder of me!
Most importantly, as Dave_W points out, you (nor anyone else) can offer anything more than an assertion that your book is what you say it is. Until you can overcome that obstacle you aren't going to change any minds here.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Debating religious types, good and bad arguments
