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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 08/07/2008 : 20:21:47
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Tuesday I gave a talk about "Theologically Liberal Christianity" at the Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia, about how some Christians are closer in their worldview to atheistic humanists than fundamentalist Christians.
Here's a link to a video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3379059747677765845&hl=en
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 10:43:11 [Permalink]
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Good presentation,
Ray Comfort uses the same SILK and POTS trick.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 13:10:54 [Permalink]
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Interesting; what things does Comfort find are falsely associated with each other?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2008 : 09:13:29 [Permalink]
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He uses them to illustrate that we need to be aware that we can be fooled into believeing false doctrine. Things that seem to be true may not be given more time to think and study them.
He also talks about true and false converts. Someone can outwardly look saved but in reality they are not. Going to church regularly, having bible knowledge, giving to charity, serving the church and evangelizing are some outward signs that someone is saved but as you pointed out in your presentation some of these are secular values as well and many who call themselves christians in america are not saved. Indeed most are not. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2008 : 09:31:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
...He also talks about true and false converts. Someone can outwardly look saved but in reality they are not....
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So along the same lines of it would imply that someone could not be Christian, not know of Christianity or the Bible, or know all about it and reject it, and be "saved." |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2008 : 09:56:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
Originally posted by Robb
...He also talks about true and false converts. Someone can outwardly look saved but in reality they are not....
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So along the same lines of it would imply that someone could not be Christian, not know of Christianity or the Bible, or know all about it and reject it, and be "saved."
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I don't follow how you come to this conclusion. Can you explain please? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 07:53:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I don't follow how you come to this conclusion. Can you explain please?
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Since, according to Ray Comfort's Christian dogma one could be proclaimed unsaved despite accepting all of the requirements to be "born again" or "saved", then it stands to reason that someone could also be "saved" by God despite knowing nothing of the requirements of the dogma. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 13:18:09 [Permalink]
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Not necessarily though. What Ray Comfort may think is that these outwardly observable behaviours are required but not sufficient in themselves to be saved. It also requires some inner components (like sincerity) that we can not assess for certain.
I think Comfort, being a literalist, does believe that 'one comes to the Father except through me'. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 14:03:33 [Permalink]
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| Just finished watching the video. Interesting stuff, good job! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 14:56:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
...What Ray Comfort may think is that these outwardly observable behaviors are required but not sufficient in themselves to be saved. It also requires some inner components (like sincerity) that we can not assess for certain. I think Comfort, being a literalist, does believe that 'one comes to the Father except through me'. |
Differentiating outward observable behaviors from assumed inner thoughts allows Ray Comfort to classify and exclude religious people that might have some semblance of critical thinking or are politically liberal. Since fundamentalist religion is inherently at odds with democratic, scientific as well as humanist outlooks, it can be viewed as essentially a political, power-oriented system with religious dogma as structure. Ray Comfort speaks for God (and in reality is the God authority of his ministry.) His mission is conformity to a dogma, devaluing the thoughts and lives of not only outsiders, (free-thinkers and others who are uncontrollable,) but also believers who don't measure up to his level of conformity and control. Those who could be proclaimed unsaved by him would include (for example) Christians who think evolution is a scientific fact, or non-Christians, or just the open-minded and liberated.
Without the trappings of superstition, his evangelism can be seen as essentially a political power movement motivated toward a uniform conformity. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 15:03:12 [Permalink]
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Chip said:
| Without the trappings of superstition, his evangelism can be seen as essentially a political power movement motivated toward a uniform conformity. |
That pretty much describes all religion.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2008 : 16:31:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
Originally posted by Simon
...What Ray Comfort may think is that these outwardly observable behaviors are required but not sufficient in themselves to be saved. It also requires some inner components (like sincerity) that we can not assess for certain. I think Comfort, being a literalist, does believe that 'one comes to the Father except through me'. |
Differentiating outward observable behaviors from assumed inner thoughts allows Ray Comfort to classify and exclude religious people that might have some semblance of critical thinking or are politically liberal. Since fundamentalist religion is inherently at odds with democratic, scientific as well as humanist outlooks, it can be viewed as essentially a political, power-oriented system with religious dogma as structure. Ray Comfort speaks for God (and in reality is the God authority of his ministry.) His mission is conformity to a dogma, devaluing the thoughts and lives of not only outsiders, (free-thinkers and others who are uncontrollable,) but also believers who don't measure up to his level of conformity and control. Those who could be proclaimed unsaved by him would include (for example) Christians who think evolution is a scientific fact, or non-Christians, or just the open-minded and liberated.
Without the trappings of superstition, his evangelism can be seen as essentially a political power movement motivated toward a uniform conformity.
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Pretty much! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 07:29:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
Originally posted by Robb
I don't follow how you come to this conclusion. Can you explain please?
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Since, according to Ray Comfort's Christian dogma one could be proclaimed unsaved despite accepting all of the requirements to be "born again" or "saved", then it stands to reason that someone could also be "saved" by God despite knowing nothing of the requirements of the dogma.
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What Ray says is that someone could outwardly look like a christian. Meaning they go to church, serve, evangelize etc but in their heart they have never repented. They came to faith becasue they thought it would improve thier life. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 07:57:59 [Permalink]
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| Robb, is it possible for someone to repent, and not go to church, not serve, not evangelize, and still be saved? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 08:10:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Robb, is it possible for someone to repent, and not go to church, not serve, not evangelize, and still be saved?
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Yes. These things are not required for salvation. repentance and trusting that (belief) Jesus died for your sins is the only requirement the Bible mentions to be saved. These other things are products of your salvation. Not required. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 23:32:43 [Permalink]
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Robb,
How do you know this stuff? Short of claiming a special sixth sense, how could you know this stuff? You give such specific theological answers in such with the confidence of authority, in the same manner as I could, say, explain color mixing, measuring, or any other factual information to a child. But how on earth are you so lucky as to have access to this special divine knowledge? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Theologically Liberal Christianity Talk
