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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2008 : 14:46:49 [Permalink]
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No, I do not think it is right for the government to steal my money just so you can have health care. When the majority feel that we "must" have socialized err.. universal healthcare - all I can do is suggest that it be done without a system of debt.
If you want it - great! Go for it. Knock yourself out.
The Obama UHC plan is based on Medicare and Medicaid - look to see if those are robust and run with a balanced budget.
Does one feel confident the US government can make a UHC system that is viable?
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Stealing?
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Taxes are not theft. Especially in this country where they are decided by (indirect) democracy and (for the most part) spent for the good of all. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 15:04:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zeked
"Socialized medicine, socialized markets – meh, dollars from my pocket and less personal liberty, more government controls."Zeked isn't doing that, though. He's effectively saying that societies should be without government, because having one necessarily takes money from the citizens' pockets and denies them some personal freedom. Which, of course, denies the right of the people to collectively say, "we should create a government."
And your typical cave-dwelling, bark-wearing hermit would disagree that "we need to live in society." The Unabomber would still be free today in his self-imposed exile if he had decided that removing himself from society was good enough. |
Explain will you? How do you draw such fantastic conclusions? |
The only objections you had rasied to socialized medicine or socialized markets is that they steal from your wallet and your freedom. Since that's all you'd left us with, I drew the obvious conclusion: any amount of governance is bad, because governance costs money and that money must necessarily be extorted from the citizenry.| If so, then you've lied on your SFN profile, and so have ruined your credibility. |
Are you nuts? |
Either you're living in Thailand, or you're living in Texas. Which is it? If you can't be trusted with that simple fact, what other facts are you twisting, omitting or fabricating?| Didn't you hear? Al Gore invented the Internet. |
Never mind the previous question. You have already answered. |
The protocols used on the Internet were created primarily at U.S. taxpayer expense. I'm surprised that you need this explained to you, that everyone who benefits from the Internet does so because of money stolen from U.S. citizens (so you would have us believe, at least).| Yeah, I think we are done Dave. |
Well, it seems you've got nothing substantive to say. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 15:06:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Stealing?
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. |
Oh, these anti-tax nuts are a hoot, aren't they? I've even seen one compare taxes to rape. And not in a casual, off-hand manner. He went on at length about why he strongly felt taxation was no different than actually physically raping someone.
Thing is, we all pay taxes. People who whine about what an injustice taxes are to them don't tend to generate a whole lot of sympathy from everyone else who are already pulling their fair share. As we've seen in this thread alone, in his responses to Kil and others, Zeked seems prone to hyperbolic argumentation. It's hard to take such inflamed crybabies very seriously. He's been reading too much Ayn Rand and Libertarian propaganda.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/29/2008 15:28:41 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 16:05:01 [Permalink]
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Zeked:
Does one feel confident the US government can make a UHC system that is viable? |
My lack of confidence in the government is only exceeded by my lack of confidence that the market will, on its own, fix what can only be called a crisis in healthcare. A very serious look at what insuring everyone would cost needs to be done. It could be that the solution is multi pronged.
For example, pharmaceutical companies make Americans foot the bill for R&D. It's not news that the same prescription medicine that we get here costs less in other countries. My guess is the drug companies are not taking a beating across the border. So we need to look at that.
I have already mentioned not for profit tax-exempt insurance companies. The government may not have to go into the insurance business, but I think it's obscene to allow companies that provide an essential service to be beholden to stock holders. I see lots of savings there that would reduce the cost of premiums. But I doubt that the goal of universal coverage could be met without money from the public fund. But since the majority of premium holders would be paying something, the public fund wouldn't necessarily be funding the lion's share.
An emphasis on preventative care should lessen the number of patients in need of more aggressive medical intervention, again, bringing down overall costs. Access to a regular office hours physician would also help to keep people out of the ER for non emergency care, reducing the overall cost of healthcare. As it stands, the ER is the only recourse for people without insurance and we are paying needlessly for cases that should be handled by a much more cost effective family physician.
My point is the whole healthcare system in this country, which is basically no system at all, and just grew the way it did, can be played with. How much it would cost the taxpayer depends on how efficient whatever system is put in place runs without sacrificing a reasonably good standard of care for the patient.
So, yeah, I think a viable system could be worked out with the Government taking a leading role. Ultimately, it's going to have to because a lack of a system, which is what we have now, doesn't work.
Zeked, sorry about having to steal from you to get this done, when it happens. (And you can bet that it will happen in some yet to be determined way.) Really, I am. Honest...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 16:29:45 [Permalink]
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Hey, I'm against taxes, too.
I was driving down the road the other day thinking: "Why am I paying for this road? My Honda Civic could totally off-road it!"
And then, after I tried off-roading with the Civic and I had to take it into the auto shop, I noticed that the mechanic-- some punk kid-- could read. And I was thinking, "Great. My tax dollars went to help this punk learn stuff. How unfair!" In fact, I've noticed that virtually the entire population can read. It's like my tax dollars have gone and educated its citizens. They can read, conduct commerce, build houses, develop medical cures. It's crazy. When I think about that, I feel so.... so socialist.
When I wake up in the morning, I'm always disappointed that my car hasn't been burned by vandals. And I'm almost shocked that my town hasn't been destroyed by air raids from enemy stealth fighter-bombers. And then I realize that my taxes pay for things like police, and this amazing military that keeps me safe. And it makes me sick. My tax dollars!
No one asked me if I wanted all this safety and security. If I wanted an educated citizenry. If I wanted all this infrastructure.
It's a sham, and all done with money stolen from me. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 09/29/2008 16:31:33 |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 18:41:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Hey, I'm against taxes, too.
I was driving down the road the other day thinking: "Why am I paying for this road? My Honda Civic could totally off-road it!"
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Do you have any idea from where the taxes to pay for roads come?
Your words present that you have no clue.
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| Edited by - calebjones1234 on 09/29/2008 18:52:03 |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 18:42:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Big Papa's social healthcare plan:
Free healthcare for everyone, (excluding Mauritanians naturally) until you hit 80, then no healthcare for anyone! Anyone caught getting health care after 80 gets exiled to Mauritania.
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Why not 30?
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Exactly!
Well Done!!! |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 18:51:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by calebjones1234
In Oregon's "free health plan" the State sent an elderly cancer patient a letter stating they they would not pay for her doctor prescribed treatment, treatment which she had had payed for in the past. To add insult to injury, in the same letter in which the State refused to pay for the doctor prescribed treatment, the State offered to pay for doctor assisted suicide. |
Ok; until you provide a link for the bolden art, I call bullshit with all the strength of my little but powerful lungs.
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ABC NEWS
Death Drugs Cause Uproar in Oregon
Terminally Ill Denied Drugs for Life, But Can Opt for Suicide
Letter noting assisted suicide raises questions
Barbara Wagner has one wish - for more time.
"I'm not ready, I'm not ready to die," the Springfield woman said. "I've got things I'd still like to do."
Her doctor offered hope in the new chemotherapy drug Tarceva, but the Oregon Health Plan sent her a letter telling her the cancer treatment was not approved.
Instead, the letter said, the plan would pay for comfort care, including "physician aid in dying," better known as assisted suicide.
"I told them, I said, 'Who do you guys think you are?' You know, to say that you'll pay for my dying, but you won't pay to help me possibly live longer?' " Wagner said. |
Are any of you really ready for the State to decided when it is time for you to stop consuming State resources and die?
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 19:04:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Hey, I'm against taxes, too.
I was driving down the road the other day thinking: "Why am I paying for this road? My Honda Civic could totally off-road it!"
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Do you have any idea from where the taxes to pay for roads come?
Your words present that you have no clue. |
I always assumed that the taxes for roads came from the people that paid the taxes. You are arguing that I'm wrong. So help me understand. |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 19:12:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by calebjones1234
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Hey, I'm against taxes, too.
I was driving down the road the other day thinking: "Why am I paying for this road? My Honda Civic could totally off-road it!"
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Do you have any idea from where the taxes to pay for roads come?
Your words present that you have no clue. |
I always assumed that the taxes for roads came from the people that paid the taxes. You are arguing that I'm wrong. So help me understand.
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You first must understand that there are several levels of government with varying degrees of taxation powers.
No Federal income taxes pay for roads.
Most roads are payed for with consumption taxes. A consumption tax is a tax which one pays upon consuming a particular product. In general, the taxes collected on gasoline are in approximate proportion with the use of the roads by the individual.
Buy more gas, pay for more roads.
One who does not purchase gasoline does not pay for roads.
Was this clear?
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 19:14:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
Are any of you really ready for the State to decided when it is time for you to stop consuming State resources and die? |
But current for-profit insurance plans always pay for life-saving treatments, right? Er, oh, wait. |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 19:17:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by calebjones1234
Are any of you really ready for the State to decided when it is time for you to stop consuming State resources and die? |
But current for-profit insurance plans always pay for life-saving treatments, right? Er, oh, wait.
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Does not follow.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 19:17:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
You first must understand that there are several levels of government with varying degrees of taxation powers.
No Federal income taxes pay for roads.
Most roads are payed for with consumption taxes. A consumption tax is a tax which one pays upon consuming a particular product. In general, the taxes collected on gasoline are in approximate proportion with the use of the roads by the individual.
Buy more gas, pay for more roads.
One who does not purchase gasoline does not pay for roads.
Was this clear? |
Yeah, but I knew this already. Though, to some degree, they do. I mean, even if I ditched my car and walked everywhere, when I buy beer at the local grocer, the cost of the delivery truck's fuel charges are factored into what I pay for said beer.
But yes, I know that most states base a lot of their road costs on fuel taxes. There are problems with this, but I'm not sure of what your point is. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 19:18:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by calebjones1234
Are any of you really ready for the State to decided when it is time for you to stop consuming State resources and die? |
But current for-profit insurance plans always pay for life-saving treatments, right? Er, oh, wait.
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Does not follow.
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Sorry. My comment was just a zinger. Ignore. |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 19:21:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by calebjones1234
You first must understand that there are several levels of government with varying degrees of taxation powers.
No Federal income taxes pay for roads.
Most roads are payed for with consumption taxes. A consumption tax is a tax which one pays upon consuming a particular product. In general, the taxes collected on gasoline are in approximate proportion with the use of the roads by the individual.
Buy more gas, pay for more roads.
One who does not purchase gasoline does not pay for roads.
Was this clear? |
Yeah, but I knew this already. Though, to some degree, they do. I mean, even if I ditched my car and walked everywhere, when I buy beer at the local grocer, the cost of the delivery truck's fuel charges are factored into what I pay for said beer.
But yes, I know that most states base a lot of their road costs on fuel taxes. There are problems with this, but I'm not sure of what your point is.
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I was pointing out that your hyperbole was just that, hyperbole. It presented ignorance. I was unsure if you did not understand or that you were presenting a silly argument.
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Debate!
