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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2008 : 19:36:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by calebjones1234
You first must understand that there are several levels of government with varying degrees of taxation powers.
No Federal income taxes pay for roads.
Most roads are payed for with consumption taxes. A consumption tax is a tax which one pays upon consuming a particular product. In general, the taxes collected on gasoline are in approximate proportion with the use of the roads by the individual.
Buy more gas, pay for more roads.
One who does not purchase gasoline does not pay for roads.
Was this clear? |
Yeah, but I knew this already. Though, to some degree, they do. I mean, even if I ditched my car and walked everywhere, when I buy beer at the local grocer, the cost of the delivery truck's fuel charges are factored into what I pay for said beer.
But yes, I know that most states base a lot of their road costs on fuel taxes. There are problems with this, but I'm not sure of what your point is.
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I was pointing out that your hyperbole was just that, hyperbole. It presented ignorance. I was unsure if you did not understand or that you were presenting a silly argument. |
Well, not really. The people who rail against the government "stealing" their hard-earned money seem to be missing a good part of the picture. Indeed, it can be convincingly argued that they are only able to earn their money because they live in a society with a well-funded government that enforces rules and regulations, and provides for the common needs of the people (like roads, police, and schools).
I don't like to pay taxes. Similarly, I don't like to pay over $7 for a six pack of good beer. But I recognize the cost of the beer, so I pay it.
The anti-tax people never think they get anything out of their taxes and complain that it's just "stolen" money that does nothing. They're obviously wrong. |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 20:14:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
[quote]
The anti-tax people never think they get anything out of their taxes and complain that it's just "stolen" money that does nothing. They're obviously wrong.
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Were you responding to an anti-tax person?
I myself have never in my lifetime met an anti-tax person such as you describe. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 21:10:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
I myself have never in my lifetime met an anti-tax person such as you describe. |
Read Zeked's posts. He doesn't seem to distinguish between different sorts of taxes. He says taxation is extortion, without qualification. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Zeked
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 23:36:26 [Permalink]
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Dave
Your narrow-minded view and ultra purist idea that I am a hypocrite because of my views on taxes requires that I must hide myself from society, not even walk on government owned streets. Your puritan approach to calling me a hypocrite is irrational and dishonest.
What moral system requires people to be martyrs?
If I were an IRS officer, that would be hypocrisy.
| If you can't be trusted with that simple fact, what other facts are you twisting, omitting or fabricating? |
You may not understand (or care) my reluctance to share personal information on an open board. You really are a disappointing host. “Lived” is past tense, and my profile was accurate at the time of posting, with exception to the automated age calculation, which is no fault of my own.
Look Dave, you have made your point, the monoculture of SFN will be maintained.
Amen. Dance on the grave.
Bookmark gone.. resume. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 06:48:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zeked
Your narrow-minded view and ultra purist idea... |
The funny thing is that you haven't presented any sort of nuanced argument at all, just a "taxes are theft" mantra. For me to open my mind, I would have to read yours.| ...that I am a hypocrite because of my views on taxes requires that I must hide myself from society, not even walk on government owned streets. |
Only if you want to make your argument from a position of integrity.| Your puritan approach to calling me a hypocrite is irrational and dishonest. |
And yet you won't point out how. Again, just because you say something, that doesn't make it true.| What moral system requires people to be martyrs? |
 Many, actually. Taking advantage of public projects while decrying public funding is no different than an ethical Vegan eating a hamburger.| If I were an IRS officer, that would be hypocrisy. |
No, that would simply be worse hypocrisy.| You may not understand (or care) my reluctance to share personal information on an open board. |
Yeah, and my last name really is "W."  | You really are a disappointing host. |
Yes, blame me for your shortcomings. You should probably switch to blowrainbowsupmybutt.com| “Lived” is past tense, and my profile was accurate at the time of posting... |
And still you're evading the main point.| Look Dave, you have made your point, the monoculture of SFN will be maintained. |
That was my point? James Randi has a million bucks for you, Mr. Mindreader.Amen. Dance on the grave.
Bookmark gone.. resume. |
And of course, you run away. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 06:53:15 [Permalink]
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 07:08:48 [Permalink]
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Zeked:
Bookmark gone.. resume. |
Hmmmm... Well, I was kind of enjoying our debate. Allowed me to pontificate on the need for universal healthcare.
So it goes. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 07:17:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
[quote]
The anti-tax people never think they get anything out of their taxes and complain that it's just "stolen" money that does nothing. They're obviously wrong. |
Were you responding to an anti-tax person?
I myself have never in my lifetime met an anti-tax person such as you describe. |
As Dave noted, I wasn't describing you. And Zeked clearly didn't have any ground to stand on in his rabid "all taxes are theft" argument, and so he did what most people do in that case: he ran.
No doubt he'll find solace on some über-libertarian/anarchy site where he can lament the government's "theft" of his money. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 07:24:46 [Permalink]
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Kil, I just found the discussion against universal healthcare bizarre. Some of the newer visitors may be unaware that I live in a country with universal healthcare, and considered it great even before I had the accident that would have ruined me financially...
Today I'm a relatively happy taxpayer, because I know that what I pay is put to good use.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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greatdane_80
New Member
Denmark
5 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 08:27:28 [Permalink]
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I think the US is an extremely interesting place on so many levels. On one hand you have an enormous amount of insanely rich people, yet millions of kids are without proper health care and education opportunities. There are many people everywhere that complain about the level of taxation in their country, but for the vast majority of Americans, higher levels of taxation in exchange for universal health care, better paid teachers etc. would be advantageous. Even though science funding has taken a hit over the last 8 years, the US is still the world leader in most scientific branches (watch out for China and India in the future though!), yet there are constantly religious nutcases who support teaching creationism/ID in science classes. Just to clarify, I consider myself Christian (with reservations!), so I'm not bashing religion in general, and I think that, perhaps, it has it's place, just not in making decisions that affect the whole country. It is ridiculous that the Democrats are so desperate for right-wing evangelical votes that they barred an atheist organization from joining their convention (reference needed, I know).
Your country has such extreme polarity that it's unbelievable. If Barack Obama was running in Denmark, his party (we do not have a direct election of prime minister) would be thought much too right wing to be electable (is that a word?) on his current platform. I wholeheartedly agree with trying to spread democracy throughout the world, but I don't think it's possible to ram it down peoples throats. And I would argue that the US political system as it stands now is not really very democratic when you have only two viable choices. If people in the US truly felt that their votes mattered and that there was a candidate who could represent them, voter turnout would be closer to the ~80% it is here in Scandinavia.
Sorry about the rambling, but this election affects us almost as much as it affects you. When the American housing market was soaring, the market here was soaring. Now that things are going bad in the States, prices are plummeting here. As a side not, if you were an American living in Denmark (and understood Danish of course), you wouldn't have to tune in to CNN to follow the election campaign. It is top story almost every day on the national news here. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 08:57:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by calebjones1234
In Oregon's "free health plan" the State sent an elderly cancer patient a letter stating they they would not pay for her doctor prescribed treatment, treatment which she had had payed for in the past. To add insult to injury, in the same letter in which the State refused to pay for the doctor prescribed treatment, the State offered to pay for doctor assisted suicide. |
Ok; until you provide a link for the bolden art, I call bullshit with all the strength of my little but powerful lungs.
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ABC NEWS
Death Drugs Cause Uproar in Oregon
Terminally Ill Denied Drugs for Life, But Can Opt for Suicide
Letter noting assisted suicide raises questions
Barbara Wagner has one wish - for more time.
"I'm not ready, I'm not ready to die," the Springfield woman said. "I've got things I'd still like to do."
Her doctor offered hope in the new chemotherapy drug Tarceva, but the Oregon Health Plan sent her a letter telling her the cancer treatment was not approved.
Instead, the letter said, the plan would pay for comfort care, including "physician aid in dying," better known as assisted suicide.
"I told them, I said, 'Who do you guys think you are?' You know, to say that you'll pay for my dying, but you won't pay to help me possibly live longer?' " Wagner said. |
Are any of you really ready for the State to decided when it is time for you to stop consuming State resources and die?
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So... her private insurance did nothing?
While the free health plan tried to. Except that they have limited budget and have to make tough choice. Considering that she had less than 5% chance of survival after 5 years; they made the call to use their money where it'd be more useful.
Tough decision but logical (not to mention than, in most states, she would not even have that offered, leaving her children to foot the bill for the hospital room on top of everything).
I'd say; the problem is not their decision; they did the right choice; the problem is their low budget.
Increasing their funding, even a little bit, would have allowed them to offer her the treatment.
To me, the problem seems to be too few rather than too much public health care. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 09:24:03 [Permalink]
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Sorry about the rambling, |
Not at all. Very interesting. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/30/2008 09:24:24 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 09:24:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Kil, I just found the discussion against universal healthcare bizarre. Some of the newer visitors may be unaware that I live in a country with universal healthcare, and considered it great even before I had the accident that would have ruined me financially...
Today I'm a relatively happy taxpayer, because I know that what I pay is put to good use.
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It'll come Mab, because it has to. Even so, it will be a struggle to get it. Parts of the healthcare industry here will lobby hard against any kind of reform that threatens their bottom line. It's likely that the insurance industry will have to be rebuilt from the ground up or replaced with something new. And they are not going to just roll over for that.
And then there are the people who have so little faith in government they think everything they pay in taxes is throwing good money after bad. And even though they trump up cases of abuses in spending, there is also plenty of evidence on their side that government spending is way less than efficient. The fear of new bureaucracies is not without justification.
And then there is ideology. Social programs and entitlements are not simply viewed with suspicion by some. They are seen as nothing less than anti American. America offers opportunity, but it's up to the individual to make his own way. If he/she fails, tough shit. Many Americans like to see themselves as fiercely independent. And that ideal was not created in a vacuum but harkens back to how this country was settled.
There is a cultural thing going on that you may see as bizarre, but it has a context that may be unique to our country. Obviously, being a nation of immigrants also brings to the mix other cultural views. Mine for example.
Add to that the size of our country which directly relates to the size of any social program which increases the chances for something to go wrong, and you start to get the picture.
Still, I think universal healthcare is both necessary and doable and inevitable. But getting there will be no picnic.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 09:37:51 [Permalink]
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| By the way, welcome back Gorgo! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Debate!
