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andersbranderud
New Member
2 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2008 : 12:44:55
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This post we about the historical Jesus. Who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion?
According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today's Orthodox Judaism all his life. His followers were called Netzarim – that is Hebrew [it means offshoot (of a olive tree)] and is a name in the Jewish Bible that is used for Messiah.
During the first century those who practised Judaism were very devoted their religion. Just like King David and all other Jews throughout history they practised Torah (Instruction) – the Instructions of the Creator – with joy! The most prominent university professors in this field Prof. Elisha Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT, demonstrates that all three of the major sects of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah.
Louis Feldman (”The Omnipresence of the G*od-Fearers,” Biblical Archaeology Review, 1986.09-10, p. 45, 58ff) observes: “the Jews were apparently extraordinarily successful in winning converts”
Year 7 B.C.E Ribi Yehoshua were born in Bethlehem. His father name was Yoseif and his mothers name was Miriam. His parents were practising Jews.
According to world-recognized authorities in this area Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee (a Torah-practising Jewish group - who according to 4Q MMT practised both written and oral Torah). As the earliest church historians, most eminent modern university historians, our web site (www.netzarim.co.il) and our Khavruta (Distance Learning) texts confirm, the original teachings of Ribi Yehoshua were not only accepted by most of the Pharisaic Jewish community, he had hoards of Jewish students.
He took care of sick and made it popular to pray in what corresponds to today's Orthodox synagogues. The genealogically non-priest, Hellenist “Wicked Priest” Temple-Sadducees felt that their power was threaten by Ribi Yehoshua. They decided to get him crucified by the Romans. The Romans convicted and crucified Ribi Yehoshua year 30 C.E.
Ribi Yehoshua's followers Netzarim were expelled from Jerusalem 135 C.E: together with all other Jews. The first Christian bishop Markos replaced the fifteenth leader of Netzarim. This Christian bishop didn't have permission to do this. What the Paul the apostate and later the founder of Christianity did was to take some concepts that Ribi Yehoshua had taught; they distorted the concepts and included them in the religion which they practiced – Hellenism – the religion of the Greeks. (Sources: See Ecclesiastical History (EH IV.v.1-4; EH V.xii.1) )
Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.
Following the teachings of the Judaic Mâshiakh (Messiah) Ribi Yehoshua – that is doing one's utmost to practice the 613 commandments of Torah - also brings the inner joy, purpose and happiness of working intimately with him to bring about, and participate in, the Messianic era, enjoying a higher level of communion with ha-Sheim - the Creator - as party to Yirmeyâhu's (Jeremiah's) New Covenant.
If you want to learn about the Historical Ribi Yehoshua, whom Orthodox Jews can live with (witness the Netzarim Jews in Raanana, Israel, members in good standing in an Orthodox synagogue), you must start with books like How Jesus Became Christian by Prof. Barrie Wilson (most bookstores) and Who Are The Netzarim? (publ. www.schuellerhouse.com) by Israeli Orthodox Jew, Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben-David.
From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra'anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il) whom is foll
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 13:12:52 [Permalink]
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This is all just from your blog.
Edit to change ? to . |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 09/29/2008 13:51:36 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 13:47:40 [Permalink]
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While your post is interesting, there are a few thing that I'd nit-pick.
-You mentions Jesus as if his existence was a certitude. In fact, it can seriously be questioned. The Bethlehem birth place, in particular, is almost certainly a piece of fiction written to match (poorly) an existing prophecy.
-If he existed, his teachings, and his belonging to a given Judaic sect, are mysterious. We only have a few texts left, whose writers were one generation removed from Jesus. How accurate our understanding of Jesus' teachings are is left open to debate. Similarly, we don't have any independent indications as how they were received. That, in itself, suggest that their impact was limited.
Similarly, we only know of three Judaic sects at the time, because only three were reported by Josephus but he might have omitted some.
-It seems that Jesus lived at a pivotal time in Jewish history, when the old system of hereditary priests started to be contested and crumble. From these crumbling, the modern rabbinic religion would slowly emerge. Jesus seems to have shared a lot with these proto-rabbi.
However; modern orthodox Judaism, however, was still centuries ahead. Similarly, the synagogue institution probably did not exist at that time. Its seeds were indeed planted around that time, but they took very long to germinate...
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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andersbranderud
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 00:36:58 [Permalink]
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Simon, I want you to provide quotes from historical Scholars in leading universites instead of to give your opinion.
You write: “-It seems that Jesus lived at a pivotal time in Jewish history, when the old system of hereditary priests started to be contested and crumble. From these crumbling, the modern rabbinic religion would slowly emerge. Jesus seems to have shared a lot with these proto-rabbi.”
You didn't mention this:
“It was the Hellenized pseudo-Sadducee priests of the Beit ha-Mi•q#1241;dâsh [hellenized to Temple], whom both the Pharisees and Khasidim Qumran Sadducees called "Wicked Priests," in collusion with the Hellenist Romans. The rabbis, by contrast, argued in the Sanhedrin that the Hellenist pseudo-Sadducees should stop persecuting the followers of Ribi Yehoshua (the Netzarim) and, later when a Hellenist pseudo-Sadducee Wicked Priest, Ananos, murdered the leader of the Netzarim and brother of Ribi Yehoshua, Paqid Yaaqov ha-Tzadiq, it was the rabbis who condemned the murder in a Roman court, causing King Agrippa to depose Ananos. Before the forcible Hellenist Roman gentile takeover in the wake of 135 C.E., which created Hellenist Roman gentile Christianity and the Church, the rabbis were proven friends of the Netzarim.“ [quote: Paqid Yirmeyahu ha-Tzadiq]
This implies that Ribi Yehoshua was a Torah and Halakhah (oral Torah)-practising Jew.
For sources: se www.netzarim.co.il ; Glossarie; the letter ”T”; scroll down to: “Tzedoqim”
mvh Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim i Ra'anana i Israel (www.netzarim.co.il) som är efterföljare till Ribi Yehoshua - Messias - i ortodox judendom
http://bloganders.blogspot.com
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 10:16:11 [Permalink]
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Ok; ok.
First of all; I do not have references handy. Most of what I know, I read it from various books through the year. What I am writing is my personal synthesis from what I read and, by no means, an expert opinion. Even less the 'right' opinion, quite simply, not enough is known about that time for such a right opinion to exist.
But; you mention 'pseudo'-Sadducee. What is so 'pseudo' about them? They came from the Sadducean lineage; didn't they?
One of the thing is, we don't really know what these guys were about as we only hear from them through their opposition... Sure; the Qumran sect did not like them very much, but I tend to consider them as sort of the ancient world's unabombers anyway.
I would not call Jesus or any of his contemporary a rabbi. For me, the rabbinic movement really started after the fall of the second temple.
But this movement did start among the Pharisees.
Was Jesus a Pharisee?
Well; as I said, we only have limited knowledge about Jesus' original teachings.
He certainly was preaching outside and did not seem to concerned about the temple. This is one feature, definitively, reminiscent of the Pharisee.
Similarly, while he does not show any hint of rejecting the Torah, he does not shy away from giving his own interpretation of it. Once again, that is reminiscent of the Pharisees.
But, on the other hand, he was also an apocalyptic preacher, a feature which one would associate with more extreme sects like that of the Essens.
He also did not seem to interest himself too much about politics, in contrast with the Pharisees.
And, once again, we only have limited knowledge about three of the perhaps many more religious currents that existed at that time. John the Baptist seems to have been influential on Jesus. But his teachings are mostly unknown.
IMHO, Jesus was a preacher that, while he might have been formed in the Pharisee tradition, was influenced by a variety of Jewish religious currents.
He, however, did not seem too concerned about adhering to a particular school of thought. Maybe he considered the Pharisees too political for him. That'd make sense as he was expecting the world to end soon. The struggle between Pharisees and Sadducees may have seemed like a waste of limited precious time to him... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 10:45:38 [Permalink]
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| If you want to learn about the Historical Ribi Yehoshua, whom Orthodox Jews can live with... |
Why would we care what Orthodox Jews can "live with?"
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 11:18:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
| If you want to learn about the Historical Ribi Yehoshua, whom Orthodox Jews can live with... |
Why would we care what Orthodox Jews can "live with?"
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It seems to me that the goal of the website is to convert Christian and Muslims back to Judaism.
Or at least to merge them into one religion.
Not that I care either way but I find the place of Jesus' philosophy among the 1st century religious landscape to be interesting.
That being said; statement like:
| The accelerating rate of the universe's expansion necessarily implies, contrary to those who distort evolutionary theory without understanding what science states about its limitations, that a Creator is as real as the universe He created. |
That I found on this page does not augur well about the sanity of the rest of the website. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 11:36:10 [Permalink]
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Be sure to buy my new book,
How Evolution Caused the Big Bang and Shaped the Universe...for Dummies. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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The historical Jesus didn't create a new religion!
