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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2008 : 09:49:01
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I've been hanging out on a handgun forum....yep...gun forum. Talk about hard core right wing AKA 2nd amendment activists! But....I own a couple of handguns and even shoot in local competitions.
Anyhow....needless to say I'm in the minority....both politically and religiously. So I don't bother to mix it up too much since we would only end up talking in circles.
But now I have a weak deist willing to engage in a civil debate....this is how it has begun:
Originally Posted by kev74 View Post
I'm in, but I have a feeling our opinions aren't too far apart. |
I'm sure they probably match up more than they differ. However, I'm assuming from your earlier response that you are at least a deist?
I am the only person that I know (on a personal level.....friends family....etc...) that has absolutely NO supernatural or paranormal beliefs of any kind. No ghosts, no psychics, no superstitions (sorry but that pair of socks won't really help your team win that game), and no God(s).
When my knowledge reaches its limits and I still don't have a good answer......I never jump to a supernatural explanation.....and that most certainly applies to the origins of the universe. I would simply answer with the truth...."I don't know", not God did it.
So, if you are a deist...and even if your not, I like to start out with this question; Why do you believe what you believe?
Originally Posted by kev74 View Post
I believe that everything that happens in the universe has a scientific explanation. From the Big Bang to the formation of our solar system, sun and planet, to the development to life, all can be scientifically explained - even if we haven't found the explanation yet.
Conversely, there is a little part of me that hopes there is some kind of higher power lending a guiding hand. I have yet to see any evidence of this, nor do I expect to, but I use this hope as a source of personal comfort when times are difficult. I think governor Jesse "the Body" said it best when he said, "Religion is a crutch for the weak." |
Hmmm, my parents had a similar answer for their reason in believing in a "higher power". Namely: Fear of death (or the possible finality of it), and: Simply wanting/hoping/wishing for a reason behind all of this. My reply to my father was: "I would rather face a cold reality, than delude myself with comforting fantasies."
Now that probably sounds worse than it really is. I don't somber around in a deep depression just because I think when I do die it's all over. I look at it this way: The odds of "me" ever coming into existence were infinitesimally small.....in that sense life is a gift and I try to cherish every day of it. The thought of it ending is a sad one if you dwell on it too much.....however, once I'm dead I will be none the wiser. Death is a tragedy only to those who are still living.....the dead don't know their dead.
I have spent many years (I'm 41 now) studying different religions as well as how the human mind evolved to incorporate these ideas/beliefs to begin with. Like you, I am a man of science. We (humans) are a pack animal. We survive by forming groups and working together. Religion no doubt played a key roll in the formation and binding together of social groups.
We had no clue what the stars in the night sky were, or the sun, moon etc..... We had no clue why the seasons changed, why crops were destroyed by an act of nature.........the formation of God(s) provided an explanation for the unknowable and the uncontrollable. It gave reasoning were there was none, it provided comfort in the face of an unavoidable death.
That sounds all well and good. It served a purpose.....perhaps a needed purpose....perhaps it still does.
One problem with that.....It doesn't make it true.
I have more........much more.
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2008 : 11:30:06 [Permalink]
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Sounds like an interesting discussion; respectful on both sides. It is always good.
He seems very weakly theistic. In fact; reading the quotes; it does not seem like the existence of a God like the one he imagines would have any practical significance.
And, of course, the weaker the theism, the more difficult it is to disprove it.
The important thing, in my opinion, is that his opinion makes him happy. I share your feeling about 'the cold reality'; but, after all, anybody is free to disagree on that... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2008 : 11:56:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Sounds like an interesting discussion; respectful on both sides. It is always good.
He seems very weakly theistic. In fact; reading the quotes; it does not seem like the existence of a God like the one he imagines would have any practical significance.
And, of course, the weaker the theism, the more difficult it is to disprove it.
The important thing, in my opinion, is that his opinion makes him happy. I share your feeling about 'the cold reality'; but, after all, anybody is free to disagree on that...
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True. What I like though is that this is taking place in a hostile environment. Here we have two people, one an (admittedly) very weak deist. The other a hard core atheist. This allows for a very civil discussion in the midst of an irrational majority. Who knows.....maybe it will actually get some of them thinking.....possibly for the first time  |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2008 : 12:03:45 [Permalink]
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And your civil discussion is not getting interrupted by fanatics promising you the hell-fires?
That is pretty cool unto itself. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2008 : 12:09:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
And your civil discussion is not getting interrupted by fanatics promising you the hell-fires?
That is pretty cool unto itself.
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Not yet....but we're just getting started. I'm assuming that will happen at some point. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Debating a Deist.
