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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 10/08/2008 : 23:32:15 [Permalink]
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marf said:
| Voting is never wasted unless the elections are rigged. |
That is a matter of pure opinion.
I say that your vote is entirely wasted, in the last 8 years, if you haven't voted for one of the candidates who could win.
In 2000, how many people voted for Nader in FL? 10,000? The margin of Bush's alledged "win" was less than 1000 votes.
Are the people who voted for Nader happy that Bush has been president for eight years? Or would they have prefered Gore?
It is the right of every person to cast their vote for whichever candidate they want, it is also my right to call them a pack of fucking morons for voting third party.
For all the people that pisses off: Tough shit. Get your head out of your ass and work to change the system. Untill runoff elections are mandatory you are wasting your vote, in fact you are voting against your own self interest, when you vote third party.
The only exceptions are if you live in a state that is deeply occupied by one party or another. Texans can vote third party and it won't change the outcome of the election. If you live in PA or FL, and you vote third party, odds are the party you least agree with is going to win.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 01:00:28 [Permalink]
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All very correct. Those that scream at you and try to tell you differently have just bought into the corporate media hype about the whole thing.
I am slowly coming to the realization that voting for Republicans and Democrats supports a corrupt system, at least at the presidential level. There may be some Democrats worth saving in Congress.
I haven't made up my mind, but I've seen that the screamers, like Eric Alterman and James Carville that tell me I HAVE to vote for their candidate or I'm supporting Evil are just part of the same corrupt system, limiting the power of the people.
Good for anyone who thinks it through and then votes. Voting is never wasted unless the elections are rigged.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/09/2008 01:04:56 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 01:14:46 [Permalink]
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Marfknox.....
| It is recorded, and if enough people do it, even if the third party doesn't win (although they sometimes do in smaller elections) they can impact elections and thus influence politics. |
Marf, would you please explain to me and Dude, exactly how the very substantial vote (19% of the popular vote) for Perot in 1996 impacted and influenced politics following his failed attempt at election? What good, or bad, or any kind of influence or impact did the Reform Party have on subsequent politics?
What were the long-lasting, permanent effects of Perot's candidacy on politics? Or Nader's endless four year cycle of ego-gratification? Or any other of the hopeless losers that have meddled in the two party club that is very hard to crash!
Don't get me wrong, a real third party would be wonderful. But I believe it will have to develop as an enormous defection (did I spell that right?) from either the Democrats or the Republicans!
Dude.....Please answer Marfknox's response to my query. I'm going to Banff, Lake Louise and Edmonton for about a week of Indian Summer and a contribution to our Northern Neighbor's economy. See you all next week! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 02:12:39 [Permalink]
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Tell me, what is the point of continuing to support a corrupt system?
How will we move the Democratic Party anywhere but to the right by continuing to encourage them to serve only the wealthy?
Originally posted by bngbuck
Marfknox.....
| It is recorded, and if enough people do it, even if the third party doesn't win (although they sometimes do in smaller elections) they can impact elections and thus influence politics. |
Marf, would you please explain to me and Dude, |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/09/2008 02:13:19 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 05:43:10 [Permalink]
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| There appear to be many who agree with Nader's ideas, but think if they vote for someone that doesn't have those ideals, they'll somehow get to those ideals. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 07:09:16 [Permalink]
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I think that, if enough people vote for a third party the closest party will be forced to take that into consideration.
Let say, that the Democrats lost in 2000 because of the votes they lost to Nader.
In 2004, they should try to avoid that. How to do it? By incorporating some of Nader's ideas into their campaign -and policy until then- and, hence, appealing back these 'lost voters' into the fold of their party.
Hence, the third party will have an indirect impact.
Similarly, in French politic, it is easy to see that the rise of the far right in the 80ies was followed by the cooptation of some of its ideas and a toughening of the immigration policies, even if the far right parties never actually won any major elections themselves. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 07:44:34 [Permalink]
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Perot was marginalized, rightly or wrongly, so I'm not sure he would have had a lasting effect. He may have, I dunno.
Nader has been marginalized as well. See the movie 'An Unreasonable Man.' |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 08:59:42 [Permalink]
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Look, if you are in a state that is solid blue or red, go ahead and vote your conscience. But if you are in a state that can go either way, I think you have a moral imperative to vote for for what you might view as the lesser of two evils.
Does anyone here really think Bush was the same as Gore? Do you think that we would have invaded Iraq if Gore had been president? Don't you think Gore's environmental policies would have helped the country? Bush is who we got because of third party votes in Florida.
I understand the concern we all have that this system is too closed. But there is a time for protest and a time to be pragmatic. How can a rationalist justify voting their conscience over the reality that their vote might put into office the person who even they would least like to see there? Sometimes pragmatism trumps conscience as the most rational way to go. Every game is its own and it seems to me that each time we must, as critical thinkers, apply the best reasoning we can for the best outcome given current circumstances.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 09:09:14 [Permalink]
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| I live in Alabama, and I'm not voting for Obama. It doesn't matter who I vote for, since McCain will win this state. So I'll vote for Nader for the 3rd election in a row. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 09:09:27 [Permalink]
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But I'd make the point that it is the Democrat's job to reach an agreement with Nader so that he bows out in favour of the Democrats.
Nader is not stupid, he knows as well as you and me about this situation and that the best chance for his ideas is through the Democrats. He should jump on the chance to have some of them picked up by the democrats which, in turn, should be ready to make concessions to win these votes.
If the democrats are going to get the Naderists' votes, they should do their best to represent them. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 09:57:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But I'd make the point that it is the Democrat's job to reach an agreement with Nader so that he bows out in favour of the Democrats.
Nader is not stupid, he knows as well as you and me about this situation and that the best chance for his ideas is through the Democrats. He should jump on the chance to have some of them picked up by the democrats which, in turn, should be ready to make concessions to win these votes.
If the democrats are going to get the Naderists' votes, they should do their best to represent them.
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But Nader does not like the Democrats. He seemingly hates both parties.....he won't bow out...no way.....he's a real G.D.I. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 10:09:18 [Permalink]
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Well... Then by reaching toward him and getting rebuffed, the democrats will prove him for what he is, a stubborn ideologue that does not really care if he is compromising the wishes of the people that vote for him. That should turn some people away from him, should it not?
I know that I am being naive but there you are... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 10:25:04 [Permalink]
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| Nader (et al) will continue to be ignored by the two parties. Yes they will steal votes, that's why a decisive victory would be nice for a change. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 10:42:48 [Permalink]
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Does anyone here really think there was no war against Iraq before Bush II?
Bush is who we got because of people who voted for Bush, people who cheated for Bush, and because Gore lost the election. Just ask him.
Does anyone here really think Bush was the same as Gore? Do you think that we would have invaded Iraq if Gore had been president? Don't you think Gore's environmental policies would have helped the country? Bush is who we got because of third party votes in Florida.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Debate #2
