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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:17:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Does anyone here really think there was no war against Iraq before Bush II?
Bush is who we got because of people who voted for Bush, people who cheated for Bush, and because Gore lost the election. Just ask him.
Does anyone here really think Bush was the same as Gore? Do you think that we would have invaded Iraq if Gore had been president? Don't you think Gore's environmental policies would have helped the country? Bush is who we got because of third party votes in Florida.
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If you want to compare sanctions to the invasion of troops into a country that was not a threat to us (even though they sold it that way) with the purpose of creating a new government friendly to us by using brute force without provocation, then I guess it's all the same to you. If you can't tell the difference between a neocon policy and a policy of sanctions, I guess they are all the same.
I don't see it that way.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:24:21 [Permalink]
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| Well; to be perfectly fair, even during the Clinton era they were flyby of Iraq and occasional air raids on Iraqi positions. But certainly nothing that can even start to compare with the actual invasion of the country. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:38:13 [Permalink]
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gorgo said:
Bush is who we got because of people who voted for Bush, people who cheated for Bush, and because Gore lost the election. Just ask him.
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If the people who voted for Nader in FL had instead voted for Gore (seriously, the overwhelming majority of Green party voters would have prefered Gore over Bush), then Bush would have been defeated.
At some point pragmatism must trump idealism. The Green Party has had a massive impact on US politics and foriegn policy. As a result of the Green Party candidacy in 2000 we elected George Bush (sort of) to the office of president. If just 10% of those 10,000 voters in FL had voted on pragmatism instead of niave idealism, Bush would never have been inflicted on this nation.
We have had this argument before Gorgo, and clearly we are not ever going to agree.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:40:21 [Permalink]
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Bush continued Clinton and Bush I's war.
Sure, there is a difference between Clinton's sanctions that murdered and impoverished who knows how many thousands, and a full-scale war and occupation that murders millions and more quickly tears apart a country and impoverishes even more.
There are both murder. If you want me to vote for criminal types and people who aid criminal types, and say I'm naive for voting my conscience, then, I'm not sure when you think it's a good idea to vote your conscience.
Neither Obama nor McCain will talk about Bush's crimes, they only wish to prolong them. Obama wants to "negotiate" with Iran. About what? How best to bully them? How best to continue to attack them?
What do they offer? More of the same.
If you can't tell the difference between a neocon policy and a policy of sanctions, I guess they are all the same.
I don't see it that way.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:46:27 [Permalink]
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If just 10% of those 10,000 voters in FL had voted on pragmatism instead of niave idealism, Bush would never have been inflicted on this nation.
We have had this argument before Gorgo, and clearly we are not ever going to agree.
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And I most respectfully disagree, because of all that's involved. As I said, I haven't made up my mind. BUT, if people who wanted these ideas voted for these ideas, we'd have some changes. I know that Nader would have had a good shot at being elected in 2000 if everyone that wanted to vote for him supported him.
The Democrats have pulled some nasty shit to fight Nader and keep their corporate agenda. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:51:03 [Permalink]
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Well, we can compare all day, but Clinton did very much invade the country. It was a war. A smaller war than the last few years, but a long deadly war. No reason to think the war would not have been accelerated by a Democrat. It was supported by Democrats, and still is supported by Democrats.
Originally posted by Simon
Well; to be perfectly fair, even during the Clinton era they were flyby of Iraq and occasional air raids on Iraqi positions. But certainly nothing that can even start to compare with the actual invasion of the country.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:52:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Bush continued Clinton and Bush I's war.
Sure, there is a difference between Clinton's sanctions that murdered and impoverished who knows how many thousands, and a full-scale war and occupation that murders millions and more quickly tears apart a country and impoverishes even more.
There are both murder. If you want me to vote for criminal types and people who aid criminal types, and say I'm naive for voting my conscience, then, I'm not sure when you think it's a good idea to vote your conscience.
Neither Obama nor McCain will talk about Bush's crimes, they only wish to prolong them. Obama wants to "negotiate" with Iran. About what? How best to bully them? How best to continue to attack them?
What do they offer? More of the same.
If you can't tell the difference between a neocon policy and a policy of sanctions, I guess they are all the same.
I don't see it that way.
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What you're missing is that Obama does want to negotiate with them and not just bomb them back into the stone age.
McCain: "Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran"
That you interpret "negotiation" as "you must do as we say or else" shows a lack of understanding of what the word means.
In any case, which policy, negotiation or "bomb bomb bomb" them would you prefer?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:56:56 [Permalink]
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In fairness to McCain he said he'd negotiate as well. They both miss the point. The point is that the U.S. is the aggressor here.
It's so nice of them to deign to "negotiate."
What you're missing is that Obama does want to negotiate with them and not just bomb them back into the stone age.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 13:04:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
In fairness to McCain he said he'd negotiate as well. They both miss the point. The point is that the U.S. is the aggressor here.
It's so nice of them to deign to "negotiate."
What you're missing is that Obama does want to negotiate with them and not just bomb them back into the stone age.
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In fairness, McCain says he won't negotiate with them without preconditions. He starts out by saying "do as we say..."
Also, do you think nuclear proliferation is none of our business?
Define aggressor in this case. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 13:25:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Bush continued Clinton and Bush I's war. |
The two major differences being the scale of intervention during the Clinton years, by orders of magnitude, and that the First Gulf War and the following sanctions against Iraq was supported by the international community, through United Nations.
It was a UN mandate to reclaim Kuwait, make sure Iraq didn't pose a threat to its neighbours, and enforce the no-fly zones.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 13:35:51 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure what that has to do with Iran, but no. Not really. It's not the U.S.'s business. It's the U.N.'s business. As long as the U.S. ignores the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and Iran obeys it it makes no sense to talk about "negotiation."
I'm not sure I have time to define aggressor in this case. I'll think about that and try to get back to you.
Also, do you think nuclear proliferation is none of our business?
Define aggressor in this case.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/09/2008 13:44:38 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 13:40:38 [Permalink]
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Actually, after a few years, the sanctions would not have continued had it not been for the U.S. They were particularly brutal, the no-fly zones were clearly illegal, and the sanctions themselves made no sense. They had no legitimate purpose, at least, after a time.
We've argued Gulf War I and the sanctions here enough that I'm not going to get into that except to say that the idea Clinton attacked countries without any thought of international law cannot be questioned.
What we're arguing about then is just number of murders, not that they're not both murderers.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Gorgo
Bush continued Clinton and Bush I's war. |
The two major differences being the scale of intervention during the Clinton years, by orders of magnitude, and that the First Gulf War and the following sanctions against Iraq was supported by the international community, through United Nations.
It was a UN mandate to reclaim Kuwait, make sure Iraq didn't pose a threat to its neighbours, and enforce the no-fly zones.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 13:56:50 [Permalink]
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In fact, and that's a thing I wished Obama would have stated in response, never will either Syria or Iran accept to make arrangements and even sacrifice potential advantages for a chance to sit down with the US president.
In effect, what McCain is doing is to block the negotiations.
Not to mention, the excuse given: 'not to legitimize Iran' is retarded. Iran already is a big, rich and powerful country, with extensive links to its neighbour and powerful terrorist networks to do its biding. Iran already is a major player in the Middle East and not talking to it won't change anything.
If MacCain was sincere, he would be the naive one.
Not to mention, there is, in Iran like everywhere else, factions. Here, the 'progressive religious fanatics' and the 'conservative religious fanatics'.
The most conservative ones wants Israel to be destroyed and hate the US enough to refuse to talk to them. The 'progressive' are more pragmatic and would be ready to try and grab whatever the negociations can bring them.
So, an opportunity for negotiations would stir tensions between the factions. But McCain is too busy playing tough to take an opportunity to weaken the cohesion of his enemies...
As for:
| Define aggressor in this case. |
Well; let see... The US helped with the coup that put the Shah into power and supported his corrupt and oppressive regime. After the revolution, they tried to intervene and supported their Saddam's invasion of the country and 8 years war against Iran, selling them weapons, including chemical weapons, and sending military advisors. In all, between 500,000 and 1000,000 Iranians were to die in the war.
The US also shoot down flight 655 killing about 300 civilian passengers, never even apologized for it and, in fact, giving a bunch of medals to people.
I am picking on the US but many other western nations (the UK; France...) participated.
The Iranian leaders might be crazy bastards, but the Iranian people have good reasons not to trust us.
Edited to fix a quote bracket... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 10/09/2008 13:57:28 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 14:07:35 [Permalink]
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I am fully aware of how much we fucked up in the middle east. I know that we are seen as aggressors and rightfully so.
My question has to do with the situation as it now stands. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 14:19:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I am fully aware of how much we fucked up in the middle east. I know that we are seen as aggressors and rightfully so.
My question has to do with the situation as it now stands.
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Ha yeah... That's the initial conclusion I wanted to make... but I had forgotten about it by the time I typed it (twice actually, as I inadvertently hit the reset button the first time).
So, the 'Editor's cut conclusion' for your viewing pleasure:
But, regardless on how we got there, the situation as it stands now is that we have a powerful nation - a nation that is ruled by a backward religious elite and that is oppressing its people and is not adverse on supporting terrorism, including some that are engaged in low budget ethnical/religious cleansing against the Sunnis- and that is engaged in the pursuit of nuclear weapon.
It should not happen. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Debate #2
