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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2008 : 08:29:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
| But alas that can only happen if those who are entrenched in the current system reform it and willingly give up their monopoly on power. |
I've heard this before and I don't buy it. The monopoly on power is simply a monopoly on the people who vote them into that power. And while they do have a monopoly on it now, I don't believe there is any reason to think that a change to this monopoly must originate internally.
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But there is no real political power in the US outside the two parties. The parties control the mechanism of government at the local, state and federal level. They are currently so entrenched that no changes on the scale necessary can be made without their cooperation. And they will not legislate or ammend away their monopoly.
The only other way to do it outside the two parties is grass-roots style from the ground up all over the country. And that process would require political power be displaced from the two existing parties, which is in effect a third party! CATCH-22 style, we've already agreed such an animal cannot arise because of the structure of the current system. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 08:33:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dave......
The peasants with a billion here or a billion there aren't even in the running! And the guys with the real money probably would rather have the money than the power!
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They already have the power in a lot of ways. In a country were $ = speech, billionairs have a lot of influence. |
-Chaloobi
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 09:41:49 [Permalink]
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I doubt that a third party will be viable anytime soon. I may be wrong, given that Ross Perot had a wide grass roots appeal and was pulling from both major parties before he self destructed. Besides using his own money, he had a lot of charisma and when he talked his "common sense" talk, he sounded genuine and believable. He was pithy and down-home and Americans eat that shit up. Hell, even my father, a life long liberal democrat, worked as a volunteer for the Perot campaign. We had fights about him. I dunno but he might have been viable until it became clear through certain actions of his that he was a paranoid nut-ball. And then he chose as his running mate an old general who, in a debate with the other VP candidates kept asking "What am I doing here?" out loud. A nice guy who was utterly lost.
But the thing is, it took a much larger than life personality like Perot to even get close to viability, and even then, we don't know what would have happened because he self destructed.
However, I do see a realignment of the parties from within. I think the GOP is working on that now. It doesn't take much analysis to see that the GOP and the Democratic parties are not what they used to be. They may not be third parties, but functionally, they can behave as one.
A glaring example of that is that Clinton left a balanced budget and downsized government while Bush continues to preside over the largest growth in government since Johnson's great society, and doesn't seem to care about what it costs us. That is a reversal of rolls. It was a Republican who designated areas of the country to be preserved for future generations, becoming the fist environmentalist president. But that is now a Democratic priority which the GOP dropped long ago. I could to on. The GOP is not the party of Lincoln and the Democratic party does not appeal to segregationists anymore. Very little about them is as it was.
If the GOP has any brains left, they will forget about their base and move back to big C conservatism. The base will follow or break away. The GOP would no longer be viable if that happens. I don't see it. But I do see them moving to the center, just as I see liberalism being reborn.
Anyhow, I'm just rambling. But again, it would take a very strong personality like Perot, pulling from both parties, to make a third party viable.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 09:48:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dave......
Come on, Dave, Ahmanson's money isn't even a blip on the money radar compared to the likes of Buffet and Gates. I mean it would take multiple billions of dollars spent over several years of empire-building to actually create a viable third party!
Perot was on track, but he didn't have enough resource, he started too late, he gave up and then came back, and, mostly, with approximately $5B net worth, he didn't have nearly enough money. He quit cold after losing the '92 election! He would have been eating beans out of a can long before his thrust for the presidency even had a chance! |
But that's doing it the wrong way. Much better would be to have a third party concentrate on getting, say, a few seats in the Senate.
Suppose I wanted to give more of a voice to social conservatives (because, you know, they don't have one). I'd go to places like Oklahoma, Mississippi, Alabama, etc., and fund the heck out of a guy in a new social conservative party. And if I can steal a few wins in the hundred-seat Senate, then all of a sudden my party has an impact. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 10:01:30 [Permalink]
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Bill:
Perot was on track, but he didn't have enough resource, |
Perot could have raised plenty of money through small donations without being beholden to lobbyists. He had a pretty large following willing to follow him over a cliff, early on in his campaign. Money wouldn't have been an issue if he has instituted a donation cap like Jerry Brown did in his bid for the White House. But Perot was a nut case and probably too paranoid to allow himself to be beholden to his own constituency. Paranoia brought him down. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 10:08:59 [Permalink]
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Interestingly; this author, mirror pretty well what I think (and expressed several times on these fora), may be the future evolution of the GOP.
Interesting that great minds (or at least a great one and a more moderately sized one -but with great hair) think alike... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2008 : 10:23:50 [Permalink]
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| The US political system will not support a third party as is. |
The US politican system will not allow a third party.
The barriers to entry are nearly insurmountable. Everything is carefully designed to leave you with the "choice" between the democrats and republicans.
| Also, the media are treating pretty much all other parties are non existent. |
And when they do pay attention, they portray them as batshit insane. They like the status quo. They like the rules and regulations that keep them in power and make it difficult/impossible for anyone to challenge their dominance.
For instance, the broadcast media bitches and moans about the FCC. But when the FCC made noise about allowing anyone who wanted to to run start and run low power radio stations, all the big boys got it quashed, including that supposedly bastion of the little guy, NPR.
| But there is no real political power in the US outside the two parties. The parties control the mechanism of government at the local, state and federal level. They are currently so entrenched that no changes on the scale necessary can be made without their cooperation. And they will not legislate or ammend away their monopoly. |
Bingo! That is exactly the problem, and I can't think of any solution for it.
Lets say you want to get a new party on the ballot in New York State. First you have to collect thousands of signatures in every county. However, the rules for the format of the petitions are different in every county. Some say they have to have X number of signatures per page, others demand Y. Each bundle of signatures has to be attached in a specific way. For instance, if the county rules that they must be stapled, and the staple must be perpendicular to the top of the page, your entire packet will be rejected if they're attached with a paper clip, or if the staple is at a 45 degree angle. And the county next to it says they have to be fastened with a paper clip, so a staple will get them rejected. And the next county says the staple has to be at a 45 degree angle. And so on. This kind of nonsense allows them to discard a substantial percentage of legitimate signatures.
Once you're on the ballot you have to garner a certain percentage of the vote to automatically get on it again the next time around. Otherwise, you have to go through the petition nonsense all over again.
Are the Democrats or Republicans in NYS going to change that? Hell no, they have no incentive to make it easier for someone to compete with them.
| I dunno but he might have been viable until it became clear through certain actions of his that he was a paranoid nut-ball. |
Yep, that's what did him in. He had a good start. He had some momentum. But he was the party. Established parties can survive the nutball in their midst, but when Ross started complaining about Republicans were putting radioactive scorpions in his underwear the party, his party, was doomed.
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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The Creation of New Major Political Party
