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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 10/29/2008 : 00:51:07
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There was a boy tending the sheep who would continually go up to the embankment and shout, 'Help, there's a wolf!' The farmers would all come running only to find out that what the boy said was not true. Then one day there really was a wolf but when the boy shouted, they didn't believe him and no one came to his aid. The whole flock was eaten by the wolf.
The story shows that this is how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them.
(From Aesop's Fables, translated by Laura Gibbs, 2002) |
I've noticed that the NeoCons, at least since the presidency of Bill Clinton, have used the tactic of demonizing moderates in preference of demonizing actual progressives.
This works, to a large degree. By attacking Bill Clinton (a Centrist) as a Liberal, they move the whole debate to the right. Even if they lose on a particular issue, they lose little. Most of the news media are easily played by the illusion that "both sides are equal" in any controversy, and this adds to the impact of attacking the center.
Thus the NeoCons, in their heyday, shifted the whole political debate to the right.
If you falsely identify the Center as extreme Liberals, then actual Liberals may be seen as radicals from beyond the pale. (The media will not waste much time on such marginal types.) On the flip side, the NeoCons made themselves appear to be Centrists, and outright loonies or fascists merely look like hardcore conservatives.
But, powerful as this deceptive tactic is, it has a downside. It simply wears out over time, like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf."
Here's another thing, something I revel in. Once the body politic has realized that the centrists being demonized aren't what they're being called, and that the NeoCons have been crying wolf, a whole world of opportunity opens up for people who are actually real Liberals or progressives. "Liberal" loses its power as an epithet.
I believe that Hillary Clinton is a Centrist. She has been viciously demonized by the Right as a wild-eyed Liberal, which was simply NeoCon nonsense.
But I think Barack Obama is, within the American political spectrum, a true Liberal or progressive, considerably to the left of any Democratic president since FDR. Classical Conservatives will soon be able to thank the NeoCons for throwing out such a thick smokescreen that the election of a Liberal President is possible.
And as a Liberal myself, I thank you, Karl Rove and all the NeoCons.
Keep crying!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/29/2008 01:57:38
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2008 : 03:07:03 [Permalink]
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What is your definition of progressive, and what makes you think Obama is a progressive?
I've never completely understood terms like liberal and progressive. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/29/2008 03:58:51 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2008 : 03:30:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What is your definition of progressive, and what makes you think Obama is a progressive?
I've never completely understood terms like liberal and progressive.
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What's to understand? like most political terminology, they're just bullshit lables that change definition according to who's using them and which way the wind is blowing. Same with "conservative."
I'm getting tired of hearing it and am turning into a far-left hate machine.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2008 : 04:00:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
What's to understand? like most political terminology, they're just bullshit lables that change definition according to who's using them and which way the wind is blowing. Same with "conservative."
I'm getting tired of hearing it and am turning into a far-left hate machine.
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Well, I was thinking the same thing, but then, if I said it, I might have been stepping on Mooner's view that they weren't purposely vague terms. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/29/2008 04:01:34 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2008 : 13:19:45 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
What's to understand? like most political terminology, they're just bullshit lables that change definition according to who's using them and which way the wind is blowing. Same with "conservative."
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From a dirty old man to a filthy one, right fucking on! Truer words were never spake! |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2008 : 15:07:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What is your definition of progressive, and what makes you think Obama is a progressive?
I've never completely understood terms like liberal and progressive.
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To be honest, I'm not sure I have a good definition, Gorgo, sorry. A lot of this political stuff -- most of it, really -- is pretty slippery, including definitions.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/29/2008 15:09:11 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2008 : 16:00:36 [Permalink]
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Progressive and Liberals and Conservative are relative terms.
One is a progressive or a Conservative, according to his environment.
It; for example; varies through time. 40 years ago; being against segregation was fairly liberal. Nowadays, all but the craziest right nuts accept it as the norm.
It's varies geographically. As a friend of mine once said 'In California, I used to be considered fairly conservative. Then I move to Mississippi and I appear as a liberal!'.
It is a relative term in term of position. Although, maybe somebody which is on the left side of the issues will be on the left side of other issues in 50 years. Even if the issues will have change... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 04:11:52 [Permalink]
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According to european standards, all American political figures are conservative  Heck, socialist isn't even a bad word here! |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 08:38:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
According to european standards, all American political figures are conservative Heck, socialist isn't even a bad word here!
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Word!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 08:51:29 [Permalink]
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But; communist often is.
And, in fact, the two can often be used interchangeably, when talking about political system.
When talking about political party... It's a different thing.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 11:02:21 [Permalink]
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Socialism is equated (here) with the party dictatorships/personality cults of Cuba, NK, and soon to be Venezuela.
My observation, European Socialist groups have a more diverse political philosophy and tolerance for opposing points of view. I liken it to captialism with a conscience. |
"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 11:04:35 [Permalink]
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| Indeed; Europeans socialist parties are socialist in name only. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 11:17:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
Socialism is equated (here) with the party dictatorships/personality cults of Cuba, NK, and soon to be Venezuela.
My observation, European Socialist groups have a more diverse political philosophy and tolerance for opposing points of view. I liken it to captialism with a conscience.
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Venezuela is hardly a dictatorship, and is not a socialist country. There are people who would like to make it so, but it is not. As far as personality cult, I think that idea has been discredited as well. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 12:15:17 [Permalink]
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| I agree Venezuela is not socialist. Chavez ain't no Debbs. He wants to be Castro but ends up like Wilson and acts like Palmer. |
"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 14:21:14 [Permalink]
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The really hilarious thing here in the states is listening to pundits and ordinary citizens who claim to be conservatives.... they toss out "socialism" and "Marxism"... but none of them can really tell you what either of those words means.
Argued with a person at work the other day who was calling Obama a marxist. Just asked him to explain what marxism was... he couldn't offer even a single sentence on the subject.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2008 : 04:01:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Indeed; Europeans socialist parties are socialist in name only.
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Don't know about other countries, but for the Netherlands that statement really is bullshit. The dutch Socialist Party really does adhere to socialism, quite to the letter, arguing strongly for nivellation policies and strong governmental involvement in public and economic life. The part of pay that is above a certain amount for the people in the first (senate) or second (congres) chambers of parliament are even withheld and "donated" to the party. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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The down side to crying wolf
