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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2008 : 15:09:01 [Permalink]
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| Yep; I heard about something like it too. A cultural aspect to education and certainly partly true. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2008 : 04:01:44 [Permalink]
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A last, tiny gloat. I'm not sure that anyone not liberal and living in other than the Carolinas can truly savor this as it deserves, but do try anyway. It's one of those harmless but devastating pieces of ridicule that come along all too seldom.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2008 : 09:22:40 [Permalink]
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chaloobi said:
| Biofuels will never be able to supply world energy needs long term - at best they are a stop gap. |
I disagree. At least for transportation. Enzymatic cellulolysis, if we can get it going on a large scale, will provide us with all the hydrocarbon fuel we need, and be close to carbon neutral. The advantage of ethanol right now is that it will have a minimal disruption on current engine technology AND the distribution network for gasoline can be used to distribute ethanol without any real problems.
If hydrogen fuel cells were closer to being a viable product, in terms of affordability and hydrogen production/distribution, I'd say we should push hard for them.
For other energy uses, yes. Hydrocarbons are not the way to go. Nuclear (because we can implement it fast), and a big push for wind are needed right now. Solar has seen some big breakthroughs in the last year, and we will probably see some more in the next few years, maybe enough to make solar power a commercially viable.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2008 : 09:44:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
chaloobi said:
| Biofuels will never be able to supply world energy needs long term - at best they are a stop gap. |
I disagree. At least for transportation. Enzymatic cellulolysis, if we can get it going on a large scale, will provide us with all the hydrocarbon fuel we need, and be close to carbon neutral.
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But carbon neutrality isn't the only issue. Large scale farming for fuel has other problems that we have seen with food farming like deforestation, soil erosion, soil salination, aquifer depletion, fertilizer pollution (ocean dead zones), etc. As energy needs mount and arable land continues to decrease, we'll be faced with our fuel infrastructure competing with our food supply. Not good at all. This might be a good short term solution considering the climate change issue, but long term we need something else. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2008 : 11:01:22 [Permalink]
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| chaloobi, you're still thinking of crops being turned into energy. But what if we could turn something that's incredibly hard to get rid of - even when we want to - into energy? Like kudzu. There would be no substantial need for fertilizer or for watering. "Harvesting" could be done with bagging lawn-mowers, leaving the soil undisturbed. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2008 : 11:27:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
A last, tiny gloat. I'm not sure that anyone not liberal and living in other than the Carolinas can truly savor this as it deserves, but do try anyway. It's one of those harmless but devastating pieces of ridicule that come along all too seldom.
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Ok; that's awesome and full of win! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2008 : 11:52:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Biofuels are less attractive because they compete with our food supply, |
Only if it's done the wrong way.
| they will result in more of all the problems associated with food-farming (deforestation, soil erosion, soil salination, aquifer depletion, fertilizer pollution, etc), |
Again, there's a right way (ecological) and a wrong way (focused on commercially sucking the land dry as quickly as possible for short term gain).
You know, this is one of the reasons I have problems with "free" market economy: People's greed stand in the way of making it right.
| and as energy needs mount, we won't want/be able to use the land necessary to grow the energy crops. |
I don't think any sane, rationally thinking person is suggesting that we'd use biofuel to replace all fossil oil we're currently pumping up. But it could replace gasoline and diesel in the transport sector, where the need for mobility precludes fixed installations. Like you said, using biofuels when you absolutely don't have to is only adding a step which lower efficiency.
Plug-in hybrids should run more than 90% of its mileage on electricity from the grid (locally).
Replace all diesel-powered trains and install overhead lines. It's common in Europe.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2008 : 12:03:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
chaloobi, you're still thinking of crops being turned into energy. But what if we could turn something that's incredibly hard to get rid of - even when we want to - into energy? Like kudzu. There would be no substantial need for fertilizer or for watering. "Harvesting" could be done with bagging lawn-mowers, leaving the soil undisturbed.
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Ah Kudzu. One of my favorate plants. As soon as it starts leafing out, I begin enjoying it on the table, deep fried or stuffed like grape leaves. It's good chopped in soups & stews too, or simply eaten as greens boiled with a bit of smoked side meat. I was going to can some this year, but didn't. Now I've got to wait 'till next summer. 
Using it to distill fuels is certainly a good idea, 'cause I can't eat enough of it to keep it under control just by myself. And as I've stated before, the best way to control a species is to make a commercial market for it.
Y'know, it's really rather sad, the things we refuse to properly use.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2008 : 14:58:21 [Permalink]
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chaloobi said:
| But carbon neutrality isn't the only issue. Large scale farming for fuel has other problems that we have seen with food farming like deforestation, soil erosion, soil salination, aquifer depletion, fertilizer pollution (ocean dead zones), etc. As energy needs mount and arable land continues to decrease, we'll be faced with our fuel infrastructure competing with our food supply. Not good at all. This might be a good short term solution considering the climate change issue, but long term we need something else. |
Yeah. I'm not suggesting using any food-crops for ethanol though. Cellulose is what makes up ~90% of most plants. Stems, leaves, etc. No need to use arable lands, you just let the prarie grass grow (or kudzu, or some other fast growing plant that has no food value) and mow it regularly. Switchgrass is a word thrown around a lot lately too. Those kind of plants are ideal.
My personal idea is to take over an old oil platform in the gulf, start a seaweed farm. Year round growing, no need for any fertilizers, just a bunch of floating cages to tie your cuttings/seedlings onto, then float them off your platform. You could farm thousands of acres this way. You could automate most of it as well. Position your farm in one of the well known currents for a constantly renewing supply of nutrient rich water...
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 06:10:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
chaloobi said:
| But carbon neutrality isn't the only issue. Large scale farming for fuel has other problems that we have seen with food farming like deforestation, soil erosion, soil salination, aquifer depletion, fertilizer pollution (ocean dead zones), etc. As energy needs mount and arable land continues to decrease, we'll be faced with our fuel infrastructure competing with our food supply. Not good at all. This might be a good short term solution considering the climate change issue, but long term we need something else. |
Yeah. I'm not suggesting using any food-crops for ethanol though. Cellulose is what makes up ~90% of most plants. Stems, leaves, etc. No need to use arable lands, you just let the prarie grass grow (or kudzu, or some other fast growing plant that has no food value) and mow it regularly. Switchgrass is a word thrown around a lot lately too. Those kind of plants are ideal.
My personal idea is to take over an old oil platform in the gulf, start a seaweed farm. Year round growing, no need for any fertilizers, just a bunch of floating cages to tie your cuttings/seedlings onto, then float them off your platform. You could farm thousands of acres this way. You could automate most of it as well. Position your farm in one of the well known currents for a constantly renewing supply of nutrient rich water...
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There was a piece on NPR this morning about a program BP is funding with UC-Berkley. They're looking at some grass - more like straw - from China/Japan that's been used for centuries to thatch roofs and make paper. It apparently has a very high dry mass to acre ratio and doesn't require irrigation or fertilizer. I was pleased to hear that one of the considerations of their research is the environmental implications of using land to produce fuel.
Anyway, when I think of competition with food, I'm not thinking of using the same crops. Yeah, theoretically these hardy grasses don't need fertile farmland to grow on, but if a farmer can make more money growing a fuel crop than a food crop, he will. Then the price of the food crop will go up until that's more lucrative. With an economy founded on growth in both population and industry, these two needs grow together. It scares me to think of a time in the near future when energy eggs are in the same basket as our food.
Here's a thought - why not plant this stuff in everyone's yards and collect the clippings every other week at the curb with the recyclables? Why not? Because 1. people like their grass and 2. people don't like to be told what to do with their yards. Would make use of a lot of wasted land though. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/10/2008 06:10:41 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2008 : 06:37:20 [Permalink]
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| Here's a thought - why not plant this stuff in everyone's yards and collect the clippings every other week at the curb with the recyclables? Why not? Because 1. people like their grass and 2. people don't like to be told what to do with their yards. Would make use of a lot of wasted land though. |
Plant the golf courses with it and turn wasted land into something productive.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 07:35:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
| Here's a thought - why not plant this stuff in everyone's yards and collect the clippings every other week at the curb with the recyclables? Why not? Because 1. people like their grass and 2. people don't like to be told what to do with their yards. Would make use of a lot of wasted land though. |
Plant the golf courses with it and turn wasted land into something productive.
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#1. I don't care much for golf. #2. Golf courses produce a lot of water pollution but #3. Golf courses rake in a lot of dough and the end goal for all production is $$$, right. (Yes, I know that's debatable and IMHO, that is NOT the ultimate end, but it is for most people who think they understand capitalism) So (with that premise) can you really say they are not productive?
However - with this stuff planted on them, the game would be much more challenging. Especially putting. :) |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/10/2008 08:19:59 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 11:29:56 [Permalink]
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Here's the period at the end of the last sentence in the first paragraph of the election aftermath: 11/10/2008
The Family Research Council: "The Cause of Faith Lost"
Last Tuesday:
Oh, November 4, 2008 was a sad, sad day for we members of the mad, evangelical Family Research Council's Super-Duper Prayer Team. The Rude Pundit joined the SDPT a couple of years go under a nom de rude, and every week, he receives his prayerifyin' orders from the FRC (motto: "Father, why hast thou forsaken us?"). Our latest list o' godly demands is a despairing one, since it comes in the wake of the destruction of America by Americans tricked by the demon Obama (which, you know, sounds like a satanic chant). |
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2008 : 13:34:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Here's the period at the end of the last sentence in the first paragraph of the election aftermath: 11/10/2008
The Family Research Council: "The Cause of Faith Lost"
Last Tuesday:
Oh, November 4, 2008 was a sad, sad day for we members of the mad, evangelical Family Research Council's Super-Duper Prayer Team. The Rude Pundit joined the SDPT a couple of years go under a nom de rude, and every week, he receives his prayerifyin' orders from the FRC (motto: "Father, why hast thou forsaken us?"). Our latest list o' godly demands is a despairing one, since it comes in the wake of the destruction of America by Americans tricked by the demon Obama (which, you know, sounds like a satanic chant). |
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Thes people are fucked up. Why arn't they praying for universal health care? An end to homelessness? An end to the war in Iraq? Help for people losing their jobs and their homes? No, it's the homo's getting married and the undeveloped proto-human killing that's really important. Maybe god doesn't agree, people. That might explain things.  |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/10/2008 13:36:17 |
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The Official SFN US Elections Thread
