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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 11/19/2008 : 18:52:58 [Permalink]
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But then that was the construction trade and they might be doing things different in the auto making business.
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All unions are different. Since we're talking about experience, the union where I used to work was always held hostage by a company that threatened to move. It eventually did. There are no unions as far as I'm concerned. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 19:51:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
You know and I don't, then. I had this discussion here with someone about a local GM plant where we heard all kinds of stories about people playing cards all day. My guess is that for every union person actually playing cards there were four management people on a distant golfing trip. But, I don't know that.
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Some years back I worked a job over the Christmas holiday involving pulling two sewage pumps out of a pit in the basement of a big ass building. I won't name the location or company to protect the innocent. This job, which paid 2.5x normal pay, involved 1 salary supervisor, 2 electricians to disconnect the old pumps and reconnect the new, 2 plumbers to do the same with the pipes, 2 millwrights to pull the old pumps out of the pit and lower the new ones in, and two janitors to clean up any sewage that might spill. And 1 safety guy to check the air and write the confined space permit and make sure everyone used proper equipment and procedure - that was me. This whole crew worked two eight hour days to do a job that reasonably 3 people could have done in an afternoon. And it was all by the rules (mostly) - buddy system, work rules, etc. There are definitely excesses that need to be dealt with. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 19:57:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Paulos23
I think letting them fail at this time would be a horrible mistake.
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Short term, I agree. But just bailing them out is not the answer either. These companies need to change, and just giving them a loan or a payout will just reward them for bad choices. |
Trust me, nobody's feeling rewarded. And the lion's share of the trouble they are in is due to the crazy economic conditions we've seen in the last year and a half. This isn't all about companies running themselves blindly into the ground and then asking for help. That would be the financial industry that's getting 700 billion for making hideous profits doing insanely stupid things, not the auto industry that's been struggling without help for a decade and wants a 25 billion loan just to buy a little more time to make it to better economic conditions. | We need to force them to change, or give them the chance to change and penalize them if they don't. |
They should be given the chance, for sure. There's been major contractual changes that should help level the playing field with the foreign companies a little further out. In 2010 the UAW takes responsibility for the health care and the auto companies no longer shoulder that burden. I'm sure the membership will regret that some day.... These companies claim to be so far behind the curve, and yet there are companies that sell cheaper, work tighter, and just deliver a better product for cheaper. That became clear to me the last time I went car shopping.
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Actually, you're working on some myths there. Check out the link in the OP. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/19/2008 20:00:20 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 03:49:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
This whole crew worked two eight hour days to do a job that reasonably 3 people could have done in an afternoon. And it was all by the rules (mostly) - buddy system, work rules, etc. There are definitely excesses that need to be dealt with.
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Actually, what you're describing is capitalism, not unions. There is much waste in capitalism. These people formed a union that negotiated with someone. That someone thought that their contract was worth whatever it was they negotiated, and I don't know the reason those particular things were negotiated.
I'm not saying the system is perfect, it isn't. There were excesses against the unions that they were dealing with when they came up with those rules. Could be that one went to far. Again, if there are excesses in the unions, that probably means that there are far more excesses in management. For every shovel leaner, there are four people in management that are sleeping on the job.
Again, we had a small union that wasn't very effective (although a year or so before they shut the place down they joined the Teamsters), and the foremen bitched about having to abide by the rules. The foremen were non-union, and they were bitching about doing their jobs. Everyone bitches about doing their jobs. There might have been some rules that were stupid (aggreed on by management so they didn't have to give something else), but for every union rule that was stupid, there were probably four management rules that were stupider. Without the union, there would be four thousand. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 04:00:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I would do the bail out, with strings attached,
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Yeah. Michael Moore was talking about that on Larry King last night. Don't know if it's his idea or not, but what they should do is use that opportunity to say we'll bail you out, but here's what you're going to do. You're going to help us build better public transportation. Don't know how much of that is feasible, but it sounded good. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 05:53:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by chaloobi
This whole crew worked two eight hour days to do a job that reasonably 3 people could have done in an afternoon. And it was all by the rules (mostly) - buddy system, work rules, etc. There are definitely excesses that need to be dealt with.
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For every shovel leaner, there are four people in management that are sleeping on the job. |
Almost certainly not. There are far more blue collars than white. There simply arn't enough management people to make that statistic true. 
On the other hand, I could tell you stories about white collar waste that would make your toe-nails curl. But my intent with that story was not to pit blue against white collar, only to give an example of waste I've seen related to negotiated work rules. In the end, this scenario was entirely management's fault. The upper management negotiated the contract that produced the inefficient work rules and the local management allowed the job to be grossly overstaffed and milked for twice as long over a holiday period. IMHO, while there is plenty of legitimate criticism to level at the UAW, the contract related issues are not ultimately the union's fault. They took what they could get (who would expect them to do otherwise?) and management was willing to give a hell of a lot. |
-Chaloobi
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 07:04:24 [Permalink]
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Sure, Chaloobi, all good points, and I was not speaking literally when I said a specific number of people. I don't know what the numbers are, but the cost is probably more for waste in management than in blue collar work.
But, has the company (companies) gone to the union and asked them for help? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 07:09:00 [Permalink]
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Well, the Senate Dems have given up on the current bill, it seems because a lot of Senators didn't believe that the automakers were going to be capable of paying back the loans. The Repubs have a bill in the works which would hand over a different $25 billion, money that was already earmarked for getting Detroit to retool for fuel efficiency, but it seems that few Congresspeople think that such a re-allocation of funds will successfully pass the House.
So because one attempt to save the companies has failed and the other seems doomed to failure, and the automakers are saying that without an "immediate" infusion of funds they are going to collapse, look for bankruptcy filings any day, now. If my thinking is correct, the only people who are buying American cars right now are those who haven't been following the news, or those who think that their car purchase might help to keep Detroit afloat. (It'd be interesting to see a grass-roots "Buy American Right Now" campaign, but if one were to start I'd think they're a few months too late.)
This is all, of course, independent of what caused the problem in the first place. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 08:12:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, the Senate Dems have given up on the current bill, it seems because a lot of Senators didn't believe that the automakers were going to be capable of paying back the loans. The Repubs have a bill in the works which would hand over a different $25 billion, money that was already earmarked for getting Detroit to retool for fuel efficiency, but it seems that few Congresspeople think that such a re-allocation of funds will successfully pass the House.
So because one attempt to save the companies has failed and the other seems doomed to failure, and the automakers are saying that without an "immediate" infusion of funds they are going to collapse, look for bankruptcy filings any day, now. If my thinking is correct, the only people who are buying American cars right now are those who haven't been following the news, or those who think that their car purchase might help to keep Detroit afloat. (It'd be interesting to see a grass-roots "Buy American Right Now" campaign, but if one were to start I'd think they're a few months too late.)
This is all, of course, independent of what caused the problem in the first place.
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GM is the one likley to file. Ford is ok for at least a year (some rumors say two) and I think Chrysler's fallen to pieces already anyway. It's hard to know about Chrysler because Cerberus is private and doesn't have to talk about what's going on. I do know every single salary employee there has a buy-out offer on the table.
Part of the problem with GM going down is if they don't pay their suppliers, then their suppliers might go down too. Unfortunately their suppliers don't just supply GM, so if they go down, Ford or Chrysler may find they have part shortages. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/20/2008 08:13:57 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 08:53:39 [Permalink]
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As a Michigander I guess I'd better chime in,
First If I was not from Michigan I would most likely support the bankrupcy option, however I am from Michigan and I do realise just how bad it would screw this state. Instead of one Flint we would have 4 of them. Our unemployment is already 10% and there is no hope for it falling in the near future.
I agree that the big 3 made this bed and had a hundred opportunities to corrct their course, the Unions have made concessions repeatedly over the last 20 years and every time more and more workers get the shaft. Not to say that the unions arent overpaid, however those costs have been known to the leadership for 50 years and have taken way too much of the blame. In the end its the employees who will get screwed. Thankfully I am in a governement position which really can't be downsized, the government is the only reason Lansing won't completely go the way of Flint. Detroit and Grand Rapids however may not be so lucky. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 08:55:25 [Permalink]
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| P.S. I own a Honda, the big 3 make shitty cars.(from my experiences, cant afford a Caddie) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 09:21:51 [Permalink]
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Okay, well... It blows my mind that after taking 700 billion from us, that is not being used as first advertised, yet, 25 billion of it will not be spent to keep that many people employed, including parts manufacturers, in the middle of an economic meltdown.
This is a big mistake. Perhaps during better times it may be the thing to do because a chapter 11 filing might not lead to a chapter 7 because it's easier to reorganize in a robust economy. But this is just nuts. Besides all of those people losing their jobs, which will put a serious strain on an already strained economy, they will be losing their benefits including health care, again, during a health care crisis. Whole towns and cities will go under. And what about home foreclosures and housing? The ripple effect will be massive.
I'm just shaking my head. And really, I don't care about GM's CEO's. Fuck them. We can deal with them later. As for the unions, my guess is they would be willing to cut back on some benefits, if that helps, because employment beats unemployment. No company, no union benefits.
I'm appalled at this short sightedness for what seems to me to be political reasons. Fasten your seat belts, this promises to be a bumpy ride...
My hope is that they can hold on until Obama becomes the president with a significant realignment in congress.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 09:39:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
P.S. I own a Honda, the big 3 make shitty cars.(from my experiences, cant afford a Caddie)
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Actually, the big three makes some pretty good cars. They just put their eggs in the wrong basket. They have been too slow to act on changing demand. The days are over where they think they are in charge of demand by their own creation. It's a top down problem and there is no doubt that the top has to go. But we are now in the process of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 09:42:02 [Permalink]
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Here's a little essay on what UAW members are paid.
For some reason, my computer is tanking when I try to quote from it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2008 : 10:23:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Here's a little essay on what UAW members are paid.
For some reason, my computer is tanking when I try to quote from it.
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Well I did say it was adding in the paid pensions. Those pensions are costly and should be figured into the total cost. Maybe it is unfair to add it into the total hourly wage of the current work force, but it is part of the overall cost of employees. The figure really says that the Big 2.5 have to make more then $75 per labor hour (plus the cost of material) to show a profit.
Compared to the lower total labor cost of non-union workers, it is easy to see how companies like Toyota are able to make a profit where the big 2.5 are just treading water or drowning. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Killing the car companies
