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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2008 : 16:36:06 [Permalink]
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Not everybody in Gitmo really is innocent, but most of people are.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that out of the almost 800 detainees, only 60 to 80 will ever be put on trial.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that 20% of the current prisoners are already cleared of all charges and should be released, but nevertheless decided that these release will have to wait for several months, even years.
In fact, I can only think of three detainees which have been judged guilty, and that include the guy that was Bin Laden's driver and the one that made a video for Al-Qaida, hardly worth 7 years in maximum security, not to mention torture.
Guantanamo Bay is a shame, one of the worst crime committed by the US in recent years, if there was a justice, the camp would stay open, but only to put Busch, Cheney and their accomplices there. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2008 : 22:48:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Not everybody in Gitmo really is innocent, but most of people are.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that out of the almost 800 detainees, only 60 to 80 will ever be put on trial.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that 20% of the current prisoners are already cleared of all charges and should be released, but nevertheless decided that these release will have to wait for several months, even years.
In fact, I can only think of three detainees which have been judged guilty, and that include the guy that was Bin Laden's driver and the one that made a video for Al-Qaida, hardly worth 7 years in maximum security, not to mention torture.
Guantanamo Bay is a shame, one of the worst crime committed by the US in recent years, if there was a justice, the camp would stay open, but only to put Busch, Cheney and their accomplices there.
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I think the acknowledgment that not everyone at Gitmo is innocent is reason enough not to offer them citizenship.
I think the assertion that most of them are innocent is an extraordinary assertion, and requires evidence. I would point out that if the US chooses to only prosecute 80 of them, that is not proof that the other 720 are innocent, there may be many reasons for choosing not to prosecute someone.
I might agree that Guantanamo Bay needs to be shut down, or at least the prison part of it, but for me the issue needs more non-partisan evidence.
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2008 : 10:36:33 [Permalink]
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I never said that citizenship should be offered to everybody, only to those that are innocent.
As for the idea that these guys are guilty until proven innocent, it is quite a convenient reversal of the whole American system of Justice.
Facts are, for more than 90% of the people that got arrested, even after 7 years of investigation and torture, there still is not enough evidences to even have a chance to win a trial.
As far as I know, not being taken into trial is even better than than being cleared of all charges, it means they were not even any charges to stick to begin with.
And, to be clear, when I am referring to Guantanamo Bay, I am only referring to the prison part of it. I have nothing against the classical military base.
Here is another article about the (lack) of consequences this mess will most probably have.
People got arrested without reason, torn away from their family and kept in complete isolation in alienating conditions for seven long years, filled with ritual humiliation and exquisite tortures. These guys life got ruined and trampled even when it was clear they had done nothing wrong and now, they are going to be let go so that the matter could be swept under the carpet... The issue leaves me angry and bitter. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2008 : 12:48:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Do you have reading disability or comprehension problems. |
I think it's desirable that people of different points of view be able to discuss those differences without resorting to insults. I hope that upon consideration you decide to agree with me on this point. Although I myself am not perfect in this way, I want you to know that if I ever say anything you find offensive or belittling, that in the interest of good communication I will make a commitment to reconsider my words and rephrase them in ways that are more productive.
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You wrote this: "Are you claiming that describes every prisoner in Gitmo? All of them?".
When I read what Simon wrote, it was obvious to me that he wasn't implying that every prisoner was innocent (just some, or even many of them). In fact, from what he wrote I couldn't even imagine any sane and/or reasonable person could reach such a conclusion. So when you wrote your question, my conclusion was that you were either insane or unreasonable (or thinking Simon was), or trying to mock Simon the very same insulting way Jerome Da Gnome used to twist people's words.
Seeing you using the same tactics as Jerome angered me and left a bad taste in my mouth.
I'm sorry for overreacting.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2008 : 12:50:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Not everybody in Gitmo really is innocent, but most of people are.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that out of the almost 800 detainees, only 60 to 80 will ever be put on trial.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that 20% of the current prisoners are already cleared of all charges and should be released, but nevertheless decided that these release will have to wait for several months, even years.
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Simon, I would appreciate if you can provide links to reliable sources of the numbers above.
Thank you.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2008 : 14:02:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Simon
Not everybody in Gitmo really is innocent, but most of people are.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that out of the almost 800 detainees, only 60 to 80 will ever be put on trial.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that 20% of the current prisoners are already cleared of all charges and should be released, but nevertheless decided that these release will have to wait for several months, even years.
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Simon, I would appreciate if you can provide links to reliable sources of the numbers above.
Thank you.
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Sure thing, a bunch of the stuff came from Wikipedia, including the Denbaux report.
Also, I used this article", as well as
this one and this one where you can find some of the numbers. I also liked this one.
Most importantly are the various Denbaux reports (and here is another one).
The details are fuzzy, because the administration has been so reluctant to release anything concerning what went on, presumably to cover their abuse of human rights, but the overall picture is pretty clear. Clear and shameful.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 17:09:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Simon
Not everybody in Gitmo really is innocent, but most of people are.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that out of the almost 800 detainees, only 60 to 80 will ever be put on trial.
In fact, the US government officially admitted that 20% of the current prisoners are already cleared of all charges and should be released, but nevertheless decided that these release will have to wait for several months, even years.
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Simon, I would appreciate if you can provide links to reliable sources of the numbers above.
Thank you.
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Sure thing, a bunch of the stuff came from Wikipedia, including the Denbaux report.
Also, I used this article", as well as
this one and this one where you can find some of the numbers. I also liked this one.
Most importantly are the various Denbaux reports (and here is another one).
The details are fuzzy, because the administration has been so reluctant to release anything concerning what went on, presumably to cover their abuse of human rights, but the overall picture is pretty clear. Clear and shameful.
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Hi Simon!
I appreciate you posting these links and I have every intention of going through them to look at the evidence they offer and apologize that I haven't done so yet.
The casual perusal I've done so far suggests that most if not all of the news articles linked as well as the Wikipedia articles all reference the Denbeaux reports as their sources, so would you feel it's fair to say that these eight different links all really comprise one piece of evidence?
That's my initial impression. If you disagree, please do so and tell me what you feel a fair alternative interpretation is? |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 21:18:51 [Permalink]
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Yeah, that's fair enough. Denbaux is the main one. Mostly because it is not that easy to investingate the subject, so there is little competition.
One thing to keep in mind is that Denbaux used official military documents. So, it is official enough. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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One more headache for the president elect
