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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 12/12/2008 : 11:18:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
First, the highway system caused the urban sprawl you claim justifies the highway system. It's not like they built the damn thing because Americans were all spread out. Americans spread out because they had highways that made bedroom communities possible.
Second, just because most people want the convenience of a car & highway doesn't mean it's a very good way for them to get around. Nor does it automatically make it necessary. Europe does very well with it's mass transit, which incidentally was designed based upon what the US once had.
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You can all blame Robert Moses for this problem. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 11:58:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by chaloobi
You should try living in SE Michigan without a car. |
In LA, people drive to their mailboxes.
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As a recent immigrant to Canada, I feel I must commend/express bewilderment/complain about the existence of drive-through liquor stores. Can't see that one happening any time soon in Sweden.
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I know of two within driving distance. They won't allow any more in MI but the existing ones are 'grandfathered' in. I think they're hilarious. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 12:00:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by chaloobi
You should try living in SE Michigan without a car. |
In LA, people drive to their mailboxes.
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Mass transit has been a problem in Los Angeles ever since the electric rail lines we done away with, which made a few people rich. Old history. Our subway system is not a big one. And it has been very expensive to build. (Should have been done years ago.) We now have rail lines (metro rail) that run down the center of some freeways, and express bus lines with dedicated lanes and fewer stops.
There was a big jump in the use of those services when gas prices were high. But Los Angeles is a car city because it really is so spread out. We are the poster child for run away development and urban sprawl. Our freeways are being widened, but that's a band aid on the real problem.
Unfortunately, to get from point A to point B, due to the hodgepodge nature of public transportation, we actually need our cars.
We are a prime example of what not to do. City planning is an oxymoron here.
And just so you know, the lava was diverted to Balona Creek. That's what saved us in the movie...
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I don't believe there is any other way for me to get to work other than a car. I recall in MIB2 the subway got eaten by an alien.
EDIT: Oh wait, that was NYC, right? |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 12/12/2008 12:01:08 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 17:54:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
I don't believe there is any other way for me to get to work other than a car. |
I've got an hour commute going against most rush-hour traffic, with no mass transit heading that way, and no other employees that I know of living near me). I'd be hosed without a car.I recall in MIB2 the subway got eaten by an alien.
EDIT: Oh wait, that was NYC, right? |
Yeah, NYC. In Cloverfield, the NYC subway became an alien monster transit system. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 18:43:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
But Los Angeles is a car city because it really is so spread out. We are the poster child for run away development and urban sprawl. Our freeways are being widened, but that's a band aid on the real problem.
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Right, the solution is flying cars.
But honestly I think the future will entail an entirely different business model. It doesn't make sense for employers to lease expensive office space and then pay to heat and cool it when many people have all the tools to do their job right in their own home. I used to drive an hour one-way just to sit in a cubicle and use a computer than was vastly inferior to the one in my apartment. Even when someone was located down the hall from me it was still easier to shoot them an email. But things have changed, and I now work for that same company located in Vienna, Virginia from my place in Queens, New York. Gas used to be my biggest utility. Now my car sits in permanent storage.
The internet has drastically changed the face of business, but it's still a relatively new technology. As we move forward I think we'll see most business move away from the "all employees corralled in one spot" model of doing things. Granted, a lot of businesses will always need a brick-and-mortar presence, but much of what we think of as "white collar" work will operate much differently. I think the phenomenon of rush hour where people crush the freeways to get to downtown office highrises will become a thing of the past.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/12/2008 18:47:40 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 19:38:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
But honestly I think the future will entail an entirely different business model. It doesn't make sense for employers to lease expensive office space and then pay to heat and cool it... |
Coming from another direction, this makes no sense to the Hydrogen-economy dreamers, either.
One of the more intriguing notions I read about was that offices would have a big Hydrogen pipe coming into them, but only enough fuel cells to support the building and its operations at minimal staffing. When an employee gets to work in the morning, she plugs her car into the building. While she's at work, the building fills her car with Hydrogen, and uses her car's fuel cells to help power the building.
A car's fuel cells are going to be capable of pumping out a few kilowatts (for decent highway speeds), so for the average worker in an office setting, they'll be overkill. But the overages would go towards the power-hungry processes.
People who leave their homes/apartments empty while at work could do the same thing with their cars while at home, putting a minimal fuel cell in the basement. Hotels could assign parking so their guests' cars (personal or rental) could power rooms individually, and then the hotel could down-size its fuel cells to cover their car-less guests, restaurants and meeting spaces. Large airport parking lots could generate so much power, all the time, that they could probably do without their own fuel cells altogether.
It's an interesting dream, at least. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 19:53:36 [Permalink]
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*blinking at Rush's stupidity*
I hope working from home becomes more and more common. It is shocking how much unpaid time people spend driving to work. Even if your drive is only 15 minutes, that's about 120 hours over a year, or 3 extra weeks of fulltime unpaid work. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 20:02:00 [Permalink]
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| It's about 450 hours a year for me, marf. But I see it as time that I'm forced to do little more than think, so I'm not terribly upset about it. It's not like I'm thinking about my job during that time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 20:07:54 [Permalink]
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| I think a lot while driving. That's why at least once a week I end up driving somewhere I didn't mean to. My brain goes into autopilot and I start taking whatever route is most usual for me, even if I'm going somewhere else. Most of my most productive thinking requires something to type or write stuff down, otherwise I'm honestly just daydreaming. But I might just have a much worse experience with driving to work than a lot of other people. I've heard that many people enjoy driving. I rarely do. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 20:11:36 [Permalink]
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| Also, to be fair, many tasks required for jobs don't require much brain power and so allow us to think while we do them. Minding a store during slow business hours. Stuffing envelopes. Vacuuming. But it is still something we have to do for the sake of our jobs, and so it is something that we generally expect to be compensated for. A person is required to be in the car for a certain amount of time at specific times of day if that person drives to a regular job, and so that is addition of unpaid work hours in a very real and meaningful way. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 20:35:16 [Permalink]
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One psychological hindrance about working at home is... the boss won't know how much you are actually working.
Sure, you can be productive but a)if everybody works from outside, how does the boss know what productivity to expect? b)Even if you are done with the workload of a normal employee, your boss can always find something else to give you to do, just to optimize your higher efficiency.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 20:33:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Yes, yes the Sarah Palin of transportation. Looks good but high maintenance costs. The "planned obsolesce" riff was floating around in the '50s and many, including myself, believed it. Today, thanks to the Japanese, that sort of thing can't survive.
I've read that in spite of dropping fuel prices, public transportation is growing. A good sign, if true.
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Actually Filthy, public transportation is growing recently. RTD has had higher ridership in the last two months than in the past. They've added several new bus lines here in Denver to keep up with demand. However, there is one good thing to people loosing their jobs - there are actually enough bus drivers to drive all those new routes that are being opened. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 20:45:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
First, the highway system caused the urban sprawl you claim justifies the highway system. It's not like they built the damn thing because Americans were all spread out. Americans spread out because they had highways that made bedroom communities possible.
Second, just because most people want the convenience of a car & highway doesn't mean it's a very good way for them to get around. Nor does it automatically make it necessary. Europe does very well with it's mass transit, which incidentally was designed based upon what the US once had.
Third, tax gasoline back up to $4.00/gallon or more and see how popular mass transit becomes. In the last six months we've seen mass transit all over the country literally overwhelmed with riders. This is all about policy and incentives. Mass transit has long been discouraged and car ownership encouraged by government policy and the result is awesome waste and inefficiency.
But on the other hand, along with that waste and inefficiency has been a thriving auto-industry that's provided for the livlihood of millions of people for many decades. Same goes for highways - part of their awesome inefficiency is they have to be continuously re-built, keeping millions of people employed for many decades. And it turns out the highways are very good for moving short haul freight or long haul between origins & destinations and the rail on/off ramps which fostered economic growth.
Nothing is simple.
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Hmm, I live in a small town that has been around since before cars and highways etc. There is no mass transportation in my area. So without a car I would have to walk about 12 miles before I could catch a bus. While I didn't mind the 5 mile walk to catch a bus from the other pre car/highway town I lived in - 12 is a bit too far. Especially when I have to be to work at 0500 and the temp is expected to be -1ºF on Monday. I'll keep my car (and now that I'm driving a bus) I'll haul the rest of society around, while wishing people who do own cars would learn to drive them. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2008 : 06:53:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
The internet has drastically changed the face of business, but it's still a relatively new technology. As we move forward I think we'll see most business move away from the "all employees corralled in one spot" model of doing things. Granted, a lot of businesses will always need a brick-and-mortar presence, but much of what we think of as "white collar" work will operate much differently. I think the phenomenon of rush hour where people crush the freeways to get to downtown office highrises will become a thing of the past.
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If my company issued me a cell phone I could do 85% of my job from my basement office, no question about it. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2008 : 06:57:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
People who leave their homes/apartments empty while at work could do the same thing with their cars while at home, putting a minimal fuel cell in the basement. Hotels could assign parking so their guests' cars (personal or rental) could power rooms individually, and then the hotel could down-size its fuel cells to cover their car-less guests, restaurants and meeting spaces. Large airport parking lots could generate so much power, all the time, that they could probably do without their own fuel cells altogether.
It's an interesting dream, at least.
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1. In the home scenario, what do you do when your car breaks down? (and is in the shop)
2. In the work scenario, does your company pay you for the use of your fuel cell? (And what happens when your car breaks down here as well...?) |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 12/14/2008 07:02:12 |
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Help! I am surrounded by an army of stupids!
