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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
 Posted - 12/12/2008 : 06:45:39
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I´ve read on many blogs:
Scientists extract images directly from brain
Researchers from Japan's ATR Computational Neuroscience Laboratories have developed new brain analysis technology that can reconstruct the images inside a person's mind and display them on a computer monitor, it was announced on December 11. According to the researchers, further development of the technology may soon make it possible to view other people's dreams while they sleep.
The scientists were able to reconstruct various images viewed by a person by analyzing changes in their cerebral blood flow. Using a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) machine, the researchers first mapped the blood flow changes that occurred in the cerebral visual cortex as subjects viewed various images held in front of their eyes. Subjects were shown 400 random 10 x 10 pixel black-and-white images for a period of 12 seconds each. While the fMRI machine monitored the changes in brain activity, a computer crunched the data and learned to associate the various changes in brain activity with the different image designs.
Then, when the test subjects were shown a completely new set of images, such as the letters N-E-U-R-O-N, the system was able to reconstruct and display what the test subjects were viewing based solely on their brain activity.
For now, the system is only able to reproduce simple black-and-white images. But Dr. Kang Cheng, a researcher from the RIKEN Brain Science Institute, suggests that improving the measurement accuracy will make it possible to reproduce images in color.
“These results are a breakthrough in terms of understanding brain activity,” says Dr. Cheng. “In as little as 10 years, advances in this field of research may make it possible to read a person's thoughts with some degree of accuracy.”
The researchers suggest a future version of this technology could be applied in the fields of art and design — particularly if it becomes possible to quickly and accurately access images existing inside an artist's head. The technology might also lead to new treatments for conditions such as psychiatric disorders involving hallucinations, by providing doctors a direct window into the mind of the patient.
ATR chief researcher Yukiyasu Kamitani says, “This technology can also be applied to senses other than vision. In the future, it may also become possible to read feelings and complicated emotional states.”
The research results appear in the December 11 issue of US science journal Neuron.
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Hmmm.... This sounds fake. And all the sources´links in all the blogs just redirected me to yet another blok with a source´s link to... yes! you guessed it! Another blog!
What do you think?
(dited to fix typos)
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"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
Edited by - perrodetokio on 12/12/2008 06:56:39
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 07:09:30 [Permalink]
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| I can imagine this working for a single picture that someone viewed earlier, or for pictures showing a single, simple concept, like letters or shapes. I'm skeptical about more complex images. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 07:24:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
I can imagine this working for a single picture that someone viewed earlier, or for pictures showing a single, simple concept, like letters or shapes. I'm skeptical about more complex images.
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Yes. In theory it worked with letter shapes (I´m a dumbass and couldn´t post the image that illustrated the article  ). |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 07:27:38 [Permalink]
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Nothing on Snopes about it as yet. The other sites I looked at were not scientific nor even skeptical.
I'd suppose it might depend upon one's definition of "image."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 07:53:36 [Permalink]
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10x10 pixel images isn't especially high resolution. I doubt that even a number of such images are sufficient to construct a baseline for an AI-program to glean images from the mind.
The standard size of the letters in this message is larger than 10 pixel. (I'm not sure, but I think it's 12 or 13) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 08:20:19 [Permalink]
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| Dream reading will not happen, I see this more of a CIA keylogging suppliment. Passwords are no longer safe! Of course reading it from outside the brain may be a bit tough. Once the New World Order comes along we can force brainchips on everyone. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 08:36:28 [Permalink]
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Yeah; their description of the brain seems a bit like a computer screen where one area of the picture=on pixel. by looking at which pixels are lit you can reconstitute the picture.
But, I don't think the brain works quite that way.
Although; I can imagine certain picture/concept eliciting response in specific area of the brain. For example, I'd imagine that the area of the brain for pattern recognition and the comprehension of the written language lit up. But, then, it would not be a breakthrough, we know about this already. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 08:59:02 [Permalink]
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I was thinking this is a hoax, based upon a somewhat logical-sounding (but unelaborated) computer reconstruction scenario. Sort of like how a science-fiction story might dance around its key technology. However, I Googled "ATR Computational Neuroscience Laboratories" and came up with this site. They do seem to be doing advanced brain work, but I haven't yet found these particular claims there.
Here's a Yahoo story on the (alleged) research.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 12/12/2008 09:06:02 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 14:57:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Yeah; their description of the brain seems a bit like a computer screen where one area of the picture=on pixel. by looking at which pixels are lit you can reconstitute the picture.
But, I don't think the brain works quite that way.
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In the contrary, I think it might be more similar that you'd expect.
I saw a documentary on TV, it must have been around 20 years ago. They were doing a brain experiment on a cat: They had drugged the cat and strapped it to a fixture facing a blank and dark wall. Then they had inserted electrodes into its brain to monitor activity in a very narrow cluster of neurons. By using a very narrow flash-light beam on the wall, they managed to determine a specific area on the wall the cat was staring at, which corresponded to the neural cluster being probed. They could trace the flash-light all over the wall, but the probes didn't indicate activity unless the light hit just the right spot on the wall. So there is some pixel-ish mapping of the retina into the brain. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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jjoensuu
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 08:43:36 [Permalink]
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Hmmm.... This sounds fake. And all the sources´links in all the blogs just redirected me to yet another blok with a source´s link to... yes! you guessed it! Another blog!
What do you think?
you guys sure live up to your name, "The Sceptic Friends Network"!!!
One article with pictures of the images can be found at New Scientist, here:
'Mind-reading' software could record your dreams
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16267-mindreading-software-could-record-your-dreams.html
For more scientific details about this, the research is published in the current issue of the U.S. scientific journal "Neuron". That article can be found on:
http://www.cell.com/neuron/current
You will then have to scroll down to the "Featured Article" section; the article is titled:
Visual Image Reconstruction from Human Brain Activity using a Combination of Multiscale Local Image Decoders
Note that the article is not free (I did not look into how much it costs).
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 09:23:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jjoensuu
For more scientific details about this, the research is published in the current issue of the U.S. scientific journal "Neuron". That article can be found on:
http://www.cell.com/neuron/current |
Actually, it's now the previous issue.| Note that the article is not free (I did not look into how much it costs). |
The abstract is free (and even some thumbnail images). $31.50 will get a person the full article in PDF format. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 09:28:06 [Permalink]
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I dont think this is fake at all, we already have artificial eyes and ears with direct brain stimulation, it's just not as awesome as CNNs 5 word headlines might suggest.
Its like showing them a picture of a baby and then a picture of a tree, then showing another picture of a baby and determining that their brain scans seem to indicate a baby pic, very preliminary. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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jjoensuu
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 11:28:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by jjoensuu
For more scientific details about this, the research is published in the current issue of the U.S. scientific journal "Neuron". That article can be found on:
http://www.cell.com/neuron/current |
Actually, it's now the previous issue.
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oops sorry. I should have checked that out also. I just copied my above posting from another location (an Emotiv group discussing their EPOC device) where I had posted the information a few days ago (when the Neuron magazine was still current). |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 16:20:31 [Permalink]
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| Welcome Jjoensuu! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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jjoensuu
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 19:59:39 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the welcome Simon and Dave!!
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Images directly from brain
