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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 07:55:47 [Permalink]
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| Yeah; mental instabilities; self-justification and a (at least at the intellectual level) psychopathic tendencies can make for a very volatile mix. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 03/28/2009 : 11:17:15 [Permalink]
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My last comment to that guy:
Sorry, but no.
All that's left is to point and laugh at someone so filled with bile that he thinks "god's glory", whatever the hell that is, is worth the death of billions of people, and then turns around and calls those who defend human worth, like me and my "cheerleaders", "scumbags".
You're fucked in the head, and it's your religion that has made you so. I am so glad that I am not religious. |
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 03/28/2009 11:23:13 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 12:50:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
My last comment to that guy:
Sorry, but no.
All that's left is to point and laugh at someone so filled with bile that he thinks "god's glory", whatever the hell that is, is worth the death of billions of people, and then turns around and calls those who defend human worth, like me and my "cheerleaders", "scumbags".
You're fucked in the head, and it's your religion that has made you so. I am so glad that I am not religious. |
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Well written. And on the seventh month you rested. I hope.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 14:12:19 [Permalink]
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I just read this now. I don't know exactly how far behind I am in the comments, but I figured I would post my thoughts.
I as a christian would have similar theology to the gentleman who wrote this article, in that I would affirm the power and sovereignty of God. Yet I struggle, because this man who is arrogant, thoughtless, and heartless is a perfect example of how this very rich, and comforting idea of theology is represented by those who don't understand it.
While I agree with him that there is no place in scripture that says "God gave man free will", the implication of responsibility is everywhere in the Bible. So while I don't know (nor does anyone, though they may claim to) what the balance is between God's sovereignty and mans free will, but I do know that personal responsibility for ones actions is on almost every page of scripture. While I believe that "doing good things" has nothing to do with entrance to heaven, or your standing before God, I believe that sinning and passing it off as "God's will", or not helping someone because it's "God's will" that they would be in this difficult place, is sin in the ultimate form.
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."- James 1:27
The other thing I was frustrated by was the fact that he, as so many of my fellow christians are, is afraid to admit that God created/allowed sin. Even though he has as much emphasis on the sovereignty of God as anyone, he apparently thinks that evil is something that somehow falls outside of that.
My personal opinion is that God truly uses all circumstances to create something better, even when we cannot understand that. I don't mean that in a vague "look at the bright side" sense. I truly mean it. There are times that we could say "God, why let this happen?". The answer is because he is God, and he knows what is ultimately best even if we don't, and maybe never will. We are told that God is just. That does not mean that everyone will have things go "justly" on earth, but rather that they will be judged fairly ultimately.
This issue is only troublesome if earth is our ultimate destination, and that's why christians and non-christians have a hard time with it. Because even the "best" christian loses sight of this. Earth is merely a shadow of the ultimate reality that is eternity. If this is true, then the passing troubles of this world are nothing compared to the rewards promised for responding to them well. With this view, which is a biblical view, then it is clear to me that God literally created evil for our ultimate good and betterment. Even if we can't see it now, and in some case can't ever see it in this life.
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28
So, I'm not asking you to believe scripture through this post. I am however asking you not to judge Christians, Scripture, or the character of God by people like the man who wrote this article. It's not fair to those of us who actually care what scripture is truly saying, even if we ourselves our uncomfortable with it at times. That is why God is God, and we are not.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 16:46:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by byhisgrace88
While I agree with him that there is no place in scripture that says "God gave man free will", the implication of responsibility is everywhere in the Bible. So while I don't know (nor does anyone, though they may claim to) what the balance is between God's sovereignty and mans free will, but I do know that personal responsibility for ones actions is on almost every page of scripture. While I believe that "doing good things" has nothing to do with entrance to heaven, or your standing before God, I believe that sinning and passing it off as "God's will", or not helping someone because it's "God's will" that they would be in this difficult place, is sin in the ultimate form. |
I'd hate to sound like a broken record regarding Ecclesiastes, but that book pretty much nails down for sure that we can't know God's complete plan, and so cannot judge our own actions as "good" or "bad" at all.
Say that (for whatever reason) you've kicked a puppy and killed it. It could be a bad thing, if that puppy would otherwise have grown up to be a fiercely loyal companion to a great prophet who would have helped millions get saved, had he not died from a coyote attack (which would have been prevented by the puppy you kicked). Or it could be a good thing, if the puppy would have otherwise grown up to be a fiercely loyal companion to the antichrist, and the puppy would have saved him from dying from a coyote attack. Only God really knows.
Not that I agree with your premise, of course. But that's a different matter.| The other thing I was frustrated by was the fact that he, as so many of my fellow christians are, is afraid to admit that God created/allowed sin. Even though he has as much emphasis on the sovereignty of God as anyone, he apparently thinks that evil is something that somehow falls outside of that. |
Perhaps you should go set our own brother Doomar straight in that regard. He's in complete denial that God created evil. (Just ignore the stuff about free will.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 17:51:09 [Permalink]
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| I'd hate to sound like a broken record regarding Ecclesiastes, but that book pretty much nails down for sure that we can't know God's complete plan, and so cannot judge our own actions as "good" or "bad" at all. |
The only issue I would take with anything you said is that I don't think "good or bad" is not defined by an unknown future. Even if we could know the future, this does not mean that the ends justify the means.
So I don't think that not knowing God's will hinders our ability to do good or evil. Good and evil are outlined for us in scripture.
| Perhaps you should go set our own brother Doomar straight in that regard. He's in complete denial that God created evil. (Just ignore the stuff about free will.) |
I have been down the road of trying to set fellow Christians straight on this one. I would hear about how "evil is merely the absence of God". Which is something I believe may be true. Yet that changes nothing. He allowed it to happen when he didn't have to, which is nearly the same thing.
Like I said, I don't think that this condemns God...but yeah....been there. Javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 20:13:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by byhisgrace88
The only issue I would take with anything you said is that I don't think "good or bad" is not defined by an unknown future. Even if we could know the future, this does not mean that the ends justify the means. |
But you said yourself that doing good things won't get one into Heaven, and we all know that repentance for evil deeds done in the past can, so most of one's actions (good and bad) are meaningless, from a personal "ultimate ends" point-of-view.
Only if you can somehow equate "acceptance of Jesus as Saviour" with "doing good deeds" do one's generally-agreed-to-be-good actions matter (at least when it comes to a "faith is the only way into Heaven" theology), but I don't think that's scripturally supportable. I've heard it said that not following in Jesus' footsteps somehow indicates that one's faith in Jesus is a fraud, but I've never seen anyone back it up, chapter-and-verse.
Edited to say that just after clicking "post" did I remember "by their fruits shall thou know them," but that determination rests on the assumption that one can judge who is worthy to get into Heaven simply by examining what they've done here on Earth. It stands in direct contradiction to the general point of Ecclesiastes. Which is correct?| So I don't think that not knowing God's will hinders our ability to do good or evil. Good and evil are outlined for us in scripture. |
"Outlined" being the key word there. There's very little that's definite, and qualifiers abound. And it's said that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.| I have been down the road of trying to set fellow Christians straight on this one. I would hear about how "evil is merely the absence of God". Which is something I believe may be true. |
The Catholic deal is that the absence of God is Hell. One can visit "Hell on Earth" simply by being an atheist, according to them.Yet that changes nothing. He allowed it to happen when he didn't have to, which is nearly the same thing.
Like I said, I don't think that this condemns God... |
No, you've convinced yourself that God created evil for some ultimately good purpose which you don't happen to know. Obviously, God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens (in a "the buck stops here" sense), since He created it all and allows it all. You've managed to tell yourself that it's all for some good purpose in the end, but are you consistent in that belief? Do you thank God when you hear about a nine-year-old being raped? If you think that the existence of evil serves some ultimately beneficial, Divine purpose, you should. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 21:26:51 [Permalink]
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| by their fruits shall thou know them," but that determination rests on the assumption that one can judge who is worthy to get into Heaven simply by examining what they've done here on Earth. |
My theology is unapologetically "By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone".
When Scripture talks about fruit identifying the Christian, that doesn't mean that we can suddenly judge accurately who is a christian and who is not. We see clearly in Jesus' interactions with the Pharisees that one can live an outwardly perfect lifestyle and yet be the most condemned in eternity. The Pharisees lived nearly flawless and upright lives outwardly yet Chist say to them "Woe to you". It is an appropriate translation to say "Damn you scribes and Pharisees. He says in Matthew 23 that they ignore the "weightier" parts of the law which were justice, mercy and faith in God.
I believe that you will never see a christian where fruit is not evident. That does not mean however that everyone who has "fruit" is a christian.
| "Outlined" being the key word there. |
Outlined IS the keyword here. Another thing that Jesus damns the Pharisees for is "making others burdens heavy". I don't know exactly what is sin and what is not outside of the fairly limited number of things mentioned in the New Testament. I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law of the old covenant and that the law of the old testament does not apply to us in any form. In the new covenant, the only things that I treat as overt sin are the things that are mentioned again in the New Testament. Murder, Adultry, etc. It is not our place to judge (though most christians do) what is and what is not sin outside of those things. I have been in places where something like masturbation was treated as a terrible sin, even though scripture says nothing about it. That is wrong, and it is exactly what Jesus condemns the Pharisees for.
My goal in life is not to obey the law, it is to honor and know the Supreme Being of the universe. In my pursuit of that, I hope that I do obey the law of God (even in areas I don't understand). I hope that I have opportunities to help and bless many people, but those things in no way define whether I am a christian or not in and of themselves. I believe that my sins were punished without mercy, but on Jesus and not me, and I know that I need God's mercy. That is the only thing that defines whether I am a christian or not.
| The Catholic deal is that the absence of God is Hell. One can visit "Hell on Earth" simply by being an atheist, according to them. |
Well, as you know I am not Catholic. In fact, my theology could not be further from that of the Catholic Church. While I believe that many people within the Catholic Church are saved in the form that I explained above, I believe that the leaders, and doctrine of the Catholic Church are the Pharisees of modern times.
| Do you thank God when you hear about a nine-year-old being raped? If you think that the existence of evil serves some ultimately beneficial, Divine purpose, you should. |
Of course I do not thank God when a child is raped. We are told to weep with those who weep. The very evil which God uses for good is still evil.
If someone's spouse dies yet we know that they will marry again, do we rejoice in the death of the first spouse because something good an loving came out of it? Of course not.
In a situation like Japan, where peace and prosperity is now evident in there country, do we celebrate the millions of people who died to bring about that peace in WWII? No we don't.
The idea that we must rejoice in tragedy because good can ultimately come out of it is an inconsistent and flawed argument.
Though in the midst of even the most terrible tragedy it is a comfort to know that God has a purpose for everything. Both good and bad.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 22:09:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by byhisgrace88
My theology is unapologetically "By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone". |
I'm aware of that (which leaves open the question of your rejection of science, but that is, again, a different subject).| I believe that you will never see a christian where fruit is not evident. That does not mean however that everyone who has "fruit" is a christian. |
There lies the problem, which has two halves. On the one hand, we have outwardly "fruity" people who inwardly (or secretly) are vile. And on the other we have people who are generally jerkwads, but who don't "sin" as "defined" in the New Testament. I don't need to be a murderer, alduterer or thief in order to make people cross the street to avoid me. I don't need to "sin" to get people to wish I'd go to Hell.| I have been in places where something like masturbation was treated as a terrible sin, even though scripture says nothing about it. |
Um, it was suggested to me, fairly recently, that "if thy right hand offend thee" actually refers to masturbation.Of course I do not thank God when a child is raped. We are told to weep with those who weep. The very evil which God uses for good is still evil.
If someone's spouse dies yet we know that they will marry again, do we rejoice in the death of the first spouse because something good an loving came out of it? Of course not.
In a situation like Japan, where peace and prosperity is now evident in there country, do we celebrate the millions of people who died to bring about that peace in WWII? No we don't.
The idea that we must rejoice in tragedy because good can ultimately come out of it is an inconsistent and flawed argument.
Though in the midst of even the most terrible tragedy it is a comfort to know that God has a purpose for everything. Both good and bad. |
I think you're missing my point. It's not that good can come from tragedy, it's that you seem to believe that God intends for good to come from tragedy. The objections you bring up are exactly the sort of inconsistency that I'm talking about. If God created evil for a good purpose, then all evil acts are ultimately good acts, and the means are justified by the result.
And of course you're told to weep when others weep. Comiseration is a comfort to people in trouble. But you're also told to pray in a closet, and whatever you might thank God for in secret is none of anyone else's business.
But why weep at all? This earthly life is meaningless. The only thing that matters is faith and final judgement. Many people who die in senseless or evil tragedies will be judged favorably, so why should anyone weep for them? Even the ones who a person might suspect will be judged unfavorably are receiving God's perfect judgement - which must be good, regardless of its result - sometimes "skipping" decades of Earth-bound misery.
If God's ultimate purpose is perfectly good, and God has decreed that some will be punished eternally, then every soul that goes to Hell is a win for God, and nary a tear should be shed for anyone. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2009 : 09:22:28 [Permalink]
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The problem, as I mentioned before, is in God's omnipotence.
Every results that is achieved through evil and suffering could have been just as easily be achieved by God without them.
Hence, pain and injustices are unnecessary events that God only choose to inflict on us for no reasons... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2009 : 09:28:21 [Permalink]
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As for your interpretation of the Pharisees, the main critic for them in the old testament seems to be how they cling to an out-moded very literal interpretation of the Bible and how they are self-righteous and prone to brag about how much more faithful than everybody else they are.
And, sure, it can somewhat apply to Catholics, or any religious figure for that matter, but for me, it is an almost exact description of many born-again and religious right Christians.
[Edited to fix link - Dave W.] |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2009 : 13:20:10 [Permalink]
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| As for your interpretation of the Pharisees, the main critic for them in the old testament seems to be how they cling to an out-moded very literal interpretation of the Bible and how they are self-righteous and prone to brag about how much more faithful than everybody else they are. |
"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matt. 5:20
Bragging about their faithfulness was indeed one of their issues. An "out-moded and literal interpretation of the Bible" was not one of their flaws. Not it Scripture at least.
What Jesus is doing in the verse above is saying is illustrating that righteousness before God is not gained through good works. Any study of the Pharisees would reveal that a statement like the one that Jesus is making would have gotten a "then nobody is" reaction. They were the spiritual leaders, and the ones who in many cases kept the law outwardly almost flawlessly.
Yet as Paul says in Galations 2:21; "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
If anyone could have gained righteousness through the law it would have been the Pharisees, and we know what Jesus thought of them.
| And, sure, it can somewhat apply to Catholics, or any religious figure for that matter, but for me, it is an almost exact description of many born-again and religious right Christians. |
I fully agree. I should not have generalized. I believe the term "modern day Pharisee" can apply to anyone who thinks that righteousness can be gained through the law. Sorry for the arrogant specificity in saying that.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2009 : 16:32:22 [Permalink]
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No problem.
Although, that's an interesting interpretation.
For those who might be curious, the Pharisees was one of the two main sects of first century Judaism we know off.
Essentially, by that time, after the Greek dynasties and Roman occupation, it seem like the laws of the Old Testament were mostly out of fashion.
In this situation, the Pharisees insisted on the direct literal applications of the Jewish law like the Saduccees mostly interpreted the texts and were more interested in the 'spirit of the law' and, this way, were the forerunners of the Torah tradition.
Another aspect, from my reading of the New Testament, is that the Pharisees, because they sticked closer to the rules than most others, are often portrayed in the Bible, as being arrogant and self-righteous.
Personally, I think that this is the attitude that Jesus and the New Testament writers really reproached them.
As for as the obedience to the law, it seems to be much less of a problem for Paul than for the other New Testament writers. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2009 : 17:22:39 [Permalink]
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I totally agree that arrogance was a major issue of the Pharisees. Even on the outside at times. Yet Jesus compares them to "whitewashed tombs". Nice on the outside, corpses on the inside. I don't think an outwardly arrogant person would be considered "nice on the outside".
They claimed to know the way to true life. Jesus had issues with them because they were not the life they proclaimed. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2009 : 17:44:10 [Permalink]
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I think part of the problem that the NT testament writers had with this is that the Pharisees tended to consider themselves good and safe.
But, a big part of Jesus' message seem to have been on repentance and forgiveness. Obviously, Pharisees did not think they had anything to repent about, as they were sticking very drastically to the law... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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From Javier, the xian concept of "morality"
