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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 03/29/2009 : 22:00:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by byhisgrace88
The answer is because he is God, and he knows what is ultimately best even if we don't, and maybe never will. We are told that God is just. That does not mean that everyone will have things go "justly" on earth, but rather that they will be judged fairly ultimately.
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Having a hundred thousand deaths by tsunami happen to a population that is mostly not-christian is definitly not "just". Dying from the tsunami wasn't just, so when will they get fairly judged? Once they die they're utterly screwed because they don't believe in Jesus.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2009 : 00:08:22 [Permalink]
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I'm utterly shocked that in this new century anyone can argue, firstly, that an event like a tsunami is caused by a Bronze Age deity rather than restless tectonic plates, and secondly and most horrifyingly, that there could possibly be even the tiniest shred of good in it.
Bad things happen, because the world and humanity are as they naturally evolved to be, not as a god designed them. There is no design for human comfort or safety. (If the world had been designed, the designer should do hard time for deliberate criminal mischief.)
Pious hope/faith that everything will work out in some mystical afterlife where the end justifies the means is not only obscene on its face, but contains a horribly evil moral lesson for humans to emulate.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/31/2009 15:42:09 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2009 : 09:42:01 [Permalink]
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Well, now javier wants to learn about the big bang and the beginning of the universe. I recommend, since he reads this forum, that he goes to the Bad Astronomers' site. He can click on the links below and learn a few things.
Not a chance in hell he will, but one has to try. I'm done posting on his little blog; he's too chicken to come over here and post, though he does read, so he can read my replies from here.
| Mr. Dense, perhaps you'd like to explain how the charge of "blind faith" leveled at Christians by the atheists doesn't apply in this sense? Afterall, does not one have "blind faith" that these supposed conditions did exist? |
No, there's evidence for the Big Bang. It's what I was talking about on Trish's blog which Javier is referring to.
As for before, scientists freely admit they don't know what came before, that's why they're studying it. However, we can say with condifence that the universe is older than the bible implies it to be, and the order of creation in genesis is contradicted by science. That kind of leaves your god out of it.
{quote]If that is the case, can you consistently apply your methodology to your own positions, or are you blinded by your dogma?[/quote]
Just because that's how you think, kindly don't assume that's how other people think. Some of us like to go where the evidence, not dogma, lead.
It's odd being referred to as "dense" by someone who's as ignorant as Javier. Oh well. Can't blame him, he's just going along with "gods will" here.
On the lighter side, ByHisGrace88 has now made a friend.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 03/31/2009 09:43:48 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2009 : 10:34:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
On the lighter side, ByHisGrace88 has now made a friend. |
ByHisGrace88's posts so far have been rational and respectful, a far cry from Javier's arrogant pronouncements.
BHG88 certainly does not deserve such unflattering association. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2009 : 15:38:18 [Permalink]
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True, but Javier is just pointing out that ByHisGrace88 seems to believe fundamentally, the same thing he does.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2009 : 17:11:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
True, but Javier is just pointing out that ByHisGrace88 seems to believe fundamentally, the same thing he does.
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I agree. ByHisGrace88 is a gentle, polite Christian, who truly struggles with the unbearable philosophical burden of the Problem of Evil.
Javier is a fanatic, frothingly crazy fanatic who glories in the death and suffering he thinks his god commands.
But both suffer from the same underlying delusion. Javier gets a sadistic kick out of his god's mischief, so he has no reason to ever change his beliefs. ByHisGrace88, on the other hand seems to really care about humanity, and might be capable of freeing himself from this deeply evil meme.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 18:01:07 [Permalink]
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Well, for the hell of it, I figured I'd post a few bible verses. Remember when Javier said that
| Yes, God doing whatever he wants is moral. |
Look at | Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. |
That verse pretty much says that the standards that "god" has set for us is the same standards that he sets for himself. Otherwise, that verse, even in context of the other verses around it, make no sense.
That refuts Javier's assertion that god doing just whatever he wants is moral, or that god has a different set of standards than what he sets out for us.
Typical fundy, ignorant of his own holy book.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 04/03/2009 18:04:32 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 22:18:43 [Permalink]
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Did you mention that to him?
I am curious about what inventive dodge he will make up to weasel himself out... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2009 : 05:05:43 [Permalink]
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No. He reads here quite regularly as the posts in this thread show, so I know he'll see it soon enough. He doesn't bother to post here though. .
Edit: I said that I was done posting on his little blog, and I'm going to try to keep to what I said, though it's hard. I forgot once already and made a post over there the other day.
I'm trying to get him to come over here since he's so brave as to take shots at us over there.
I guess his cowardice is also ordained by "god"?
I did just try posting over at Trish's blog, since she once said the same thing Javier did: | My answer: Yes. God can do what ever He wants. |
We'll see if it gets through or not. One of the commentators there noted that she's a Calvinist also, just as Javier is.
Yet, those are the people who keep saying that it's atheists who don't have morals. WTF???
| It truly is foolishness to say there is no God. I would like to suggest that most who profess to be atheists don't hold true to their beliefs, because then they would have to admit that morals are not needed in society. |
I wonder if my reply to that stupid bint will get through either...
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 04/04/2009 05:27:17 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 00:06:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Yet, those are the people who keep saying that it's atheists who don't have morals. WTF??| It truly is foolishness to say there is no God. I would like to suggest that most who profess to be atheists don't hold true to their beliefs, because then they would have to admit that morals are not needed in society. |
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It's not that atheists don't have morals, it's that we can't have morals. Or so they say.
It boils down to the equation of the lack of an "absolute law-giver" with the complete lack of "law" at all. As should be obvious, the equation is false. "Bad" laws are still laws ("bad" being a completely subjective judgment, of course).
It's actually quite easy to derive the Golden Rule from some basic natural observations and hypotheses, none of which depend upon the existence of any deity. Is it the case that those who believe we can't have morals are simply too lazy to figure them out for themselves? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 00:34:29 [Permalink]
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| People obviously need to be threatened with eternal torture to have morals. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 01:55:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
People obviously need to be threatened with eternal torture to have morals.
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I really don't think that's true of most people. It works for me, though.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 16:35:36 [Permalink]
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It's not that an atheist can't have "morals" in the sense that we feel them in our every day lives, but rather that the application and judgement of them is completely subjective and arbitrary. There are obviously laws, and repercussions for breaking those laws.
But ultimately the idea that that we came from no creator, yet there are things that are fundamentally right and wrong is a flawed argument.
People always jump to extreme examples. "Of course murder is wrong!". "Are you saying that raping a child might not be wrong just because I don't believe in god?" What about smaller things? Most would agree that lying is wrong. Why? Who's to say? Is it because we feel it's wrong? Well what if I feel that it's NOT wrong? Why is my opinion less than others?
There is just no basis to say that our feelings or emotions dictate whether something is right or wrong. We might as well flip a coin.
In the end you are no better or worse off no matter what you did. You are dead and eventually forgotten. The idea that life is this meaningless is theoretically possible, yet you all seem to live in a delusion of morality as great as the one you accuse me of living in.
I understand and even respect the Ernest Hemingway's of this world, who deny God's existence and logically deny any meaning in life. I have a harder time understanding those who deny God's existence and invent a morality, sense of justice, or meaning in life that has no basis whatsoever.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 16:45:29 [Permalink]
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There are a few purely secular absolute moral systems out there.
But, essentially, even if one were to accept your premise, it is not because that there is not intrinsic, God-given moral or meaning of life that one can no make one for himself.
As for such morals being subjective, let me ask, did you stone any children to death for talking back to their father lately? Did you put anybody to death for working on Sabbath? Eating shellfish or wearing mixed fibres? Force a rape victim to marry her rapist?
Then, it'd seem to me that you are just as subjective in which ones of you God-given rules. At least, the secularist know that their moral are subjective and at least they can no hide behind these commandments to justify their behaviour, the way some Christian justified slavery using the Bible and current anti-gay bigots excuse their bigotry. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 17:38:48 [Permalink]
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| As for such morals being subjective, let me ask, did you stone any children to death for talking back to their father lately? Did you put anybody to death for working on Sabbath? Eating shellfish or wearing mixed fibres? Force a rape victim to marry her rapist? |
It is not subjective that I do not follow these practices because they are the law of the old covenant. New Testament Christians are completely freed from the law of the Old Testament. I make no claims about what is, or is not, sin unless it is overtly stated in the New Testament.
I eat meat, and work on the Sabbath because I am inconsistent, but because it no longer applies.
Any Christian who still claims that the Old Testament law has any effect on us is not only being inconsistent and subjective as you say, but is also going directly against the New Testament's teaching about how Christians should live in the post-Christ era.
| the way some Christian justified slavery using the Bible and current anti-gay bigots excuse their bigotry. |
Bigotry is a perfect example of false morality. I am not someone who speaks out against gays, though as any Christian who cares about scripture would; I believe that it is not God's design. People attack those who have convictions that conflict with things they care about with the word "bigot". I don't think that disagreeing with a certain lifestyle makes one a bigot, but if it did, wouldn't you be a bigot towards bigotry? Why can you attack my lifestyle directly, with no "tolerance", but I am called a bigot simply for disagreeing with someone. You are attacking the very idea that a lifestyle could be wrong by telling me that my lifestyle is wrong. If someone was born a bigot would that make their bigotry ok?
The last thing I want to do is descend into an argument about homosexuality, because I don't believe it is somehow worse than other sins. Most Christians embarrass themselves and the rest of us with their mistreatment of gays. Nonetheless, the inconsistencies in your arguments are self condemning.
(edited for clarity) |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
| Edited by - byhisgrace88 on 04/05/2009 18:58:51 |
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From Javier, the xian concept of "morality"
