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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2009 : 10:31:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
...that does not make us any safer. |
Define "safer."
We will certainly never be safe from nutcases who seek to do violence for violence's sake (thousands of U.S. citizens meet that criteria). For everyone else, behaving well and setting an unreproachable example would instill respect, and that does keep us safer, all without imposing a single restriction on our liberty. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 12:03:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
| 1) It's a war crime, it's enough for the US never to apply it. |
I agree. Its the idea that when we stop waterboarding it will make us any safer than before that I object to.
2) Torturing people is bad PR.
Sure a lot of Muslims hate the US either way, but a lot more are on the fence, or not hating the US enough to launch terror attacks. Torturing people is only giving them a nudge in the wrong direction.
Remember that, after 911, most of the nations in the world, including most of the Muslims nations, were supporting the US. |
Terrorists were not, whether the country they lived in did or did not.
3) Allies, Spain or France or in the Muslim world, are important.
terror networks are international, and defeating them will be much easier with the cooperation of the other nations these networks are implanted in.
Furthermore, other nations like France, had had their own encounters with Islamic terrorism in the past. They are surveying these terror networks for their own interests. Cooperation, once again will help increasing the wealth of information we dispose of. |
Agreed.
| 4) We know that the majority of people in Guantanamo have been released because, despite years of research and torture, they have not been proven to have done anything wrong. |
And they were released. I have agreed that a justice needs to be expedited. But what are we going to do with the ones that are terrorists when Obama closes the prison a year from now? I think a plan should have been thought out before an order given to close the prison.
| 5) Not surprisingly, after these years of wrongful incarceration and torture, these guys are pissed of enough to join the terrorists. Hence, the Bush politic actively spend millions to turn innocents into terrorist, counter-productive much? |
So all of the people at Gitmo are innocent? I am asking what we should do with the ones that are terrorists and will likely return to that activity after they are released.
| 6) It's A FUCKING WAR CRIME. |
I agree we should not do it, but to say it will improve the security of the U.S. if we stop is a lie.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 12:05:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
...that does not make us any safer. |
Define "safer."
We will certainly never be safe from nutcases who seek to do violence for violence's sake (thousands of U.S. citizens meet that criteria). For everyone else, behaving well and setting an unreproachable example would instill respect, and that does keep us safer, all without imposing a single restriction on our liberty.
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So I should unlock my doors to my house and let everyone know the valuables I have inside and feel safe because I have a just cause, live my live with an unreproachable example and am respected? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 12:18:13 [Permalink]
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So I should unlock my doors to my house and let everyone know the valuables I have inside and feel safe because I have a just cause, live my live with an unreproachable example and am respected?
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Nah, you should torture the neighbor's kids, break into their houses and steal all they have and then complain about how the neighborhood has gone downhill. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2009 : 13:06:34 [Permalink]
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I don't understand what all the shoutin's about. Simply place them in the federal prison system, then try them, fair & square, in federal courts.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 13:31:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
So I should unlock my doors to my house and let everyone know the valuables I have inside and feel safe because I have a just cause, live my live with an unreproachable example and am respected?
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Nah, you should torture the neighbor's kids, break into their houses and steal all they have and then complain about how the neighborhood has gone downhill.
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I am not condoning that. My point is these things alone cannot increase our safety. I am not condoning any other activity. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 01/23/2009 13:34:48 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 13:34:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I don't understand what all the shoutin's about. Simply place them in the federal prison system, then try them, fair & square, in federal courts.
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Would they be safe in our prisons? They probably would need to be seperated from the other prisoners and have less time outside etc. Why can't we bring the federal court system to Gitmo? Keep them there and then give them a fair trial there. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 14:49:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
So I should unlock my doors to my house and let everyone know the valuables I have inside and feel safe because I have a just cause, live my live with an unreproachable example and am respected? |
Of course not. Being a fine, upstanding neighbor just means that you're safER, not absolutely safe. You're less likely to get your house TPed on Halloween than Old Man Jenkins down the street, who shouts at the kids and complains at every homeowners' meeting.
That's why I asked you for a definition of "safer." We're talking about the difference between living in a self-imposed lock-down for fear of some random bad actor doing us any harm at all on the one hand, and on the other improving our image in the world so that taking minimal reasonable precautions is all that's necessary (understanding that the utter nutcases won't be stopped, no matter what). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 14:52:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by filthy
I don't understand what all the shoutin's about. Simply place them in the federal prison system, then try them, fair & square, in federal courts.
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Would they be safe in our prisons? They probably would need to be seperated from the other prisoners and have less time outside etc. Why can't we bring the federal court system to Gitmo? Keep them there and then give them a fair trial there.
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I think that would work, except that the Gitmo Gulag has a reputation only slightly better than it's Soviet counterparts.
The trials of these persons should be wide open to the public, and there is the thought that it might not happen in a remote location.
I think that some arrangement could be made within the system. There's really not all that many prisoners still there.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 19:39:50 [Permalink]
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Robb asked:
| Would they be safe in our prisons? |
What is it with all the fucking hysteria from the right-wing? You are making it sound as if these people are some kind of comic book supervillians who will walk out of any normal prison with ease, or they are going to be murdered in jail. We send pedophiles to our prison system, and contrary to urban legend they are just as "safe" as anyone else in our prison system.
The real problem the right-wing leadership has here is that there is no way any of these guys are going to end up convicted in an actual court. Your guys want revenge instead of justice, and as a result of republican policy for the last eight years we aren't going to see either fo those things. You can't waterboard a person and then send them to trial, because you have already administered cruel and unusual punishment.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 21:38:46 [Permalink]
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OK, a few things
1) Waterboarding - Bad. Ineffective. Bad PR. US cannot take the high moral road while still doing this. Stopping this helps us with our allies and helps convince the on the fence countries that we aren't so bad and can be somewhat trusted. By extension of lower tensions in the area and better relations, we do gain a slight modicum of safety.
2) Transfer to the federal court system is inappropriate for those at Gitmo. Using the same ruling as ex parte Quillan, the federal government has already transferred these detainees to military custody. Therefore, they are subject to the UCMJ and should be tried as such. Military holding areas tend to be quite a bit better run than the federal prison system. They can be housed in such places as Fort Levenworth, KS or any appropriate military stockade within the lower 48. Since the military is much better armed than the standard prison system, escape is improbable and a prison break from the outside, suicidal.
3) Good PR and bettering our standing in the world makes the terrorists attempts for recruiting much more difficult. In the immortal words of the movie "I'm Gonna Git You, Sucka". "They walked in with guns and walked out with jobs. They weren't aaaaangry anymore." Terrorist recruiting depends on the people being angry and feeling powerless. The US as a helpful ally reduces anger. The US as a bully who announces such assinine things such as the Geneva Convention is a quaint document increases anger.
And, no Simon, you don't win anything. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2009 : 02:44:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Torturing people with waterboarding (for example) creates fear and hate: Exactly what Bush has promoted the last 8 years.
Americans captured by hostile forces are more likely today to get tortured and/or killed than 10 years ago, just because hostiles know that they are seriously screwed if they in turn get captured by Americans. |
Maybe, they hated the U.S. before Gitmo and Gearge Bush. My point is that if we stop waterboarding that does not make the U.S any safer.
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You're wrong, but Simon already addressed that in his point #2.
But will that matter to you? Aren't you of the mind that anyone not explicitly for America are against you? Like G.W Bush so succinctly explained in his speech after the 9-11 attacks?
In such an "either black or while" world view it should certainly make sense to torture people. Because there wouldn't be any fence sitter to care about. But the reality is, that there are.
I had sympathies for US right after the attack. Then the stupid rhetoric from Bush came, and I reallied that the American public managed to elect an idiot for President. Then came the realisation that he represents a significant portion of the nation.
I was a fence-sitter myself. But American foreign policies (and internal policies as well) changed that. Today I hate America for the damage is has done for global view of what western civilization is all about. Despots all over the world can point at America and say "Why the fuck should we care about Democracy? It doesn't make the world a better place!"
It sets a good example, and demonstrates good faith. If "the greatest democracy in the world" don't bother behaving well, who the fcuk else will? |
We should behave well and act consistent with our beliefs but that does not make us any safer. |
Your belief seem to be that it is OK to torture people. To that, I have no rebuttal other than: I do not wish to be friend with someone with such belief.
I am not opposed to changing they way we do some things. But we must remember that the safety of the U.S. depends on our economy, military and will to be secure. |
And corrupting your humanity for the false sense of security is the right way to do it?
There are better ways to become secure. There's a grain of wisdom in an old proverb:
"The best way to eliminate an enemy is to make him your friend."
By making fence-sitters your friends, and turn people on the other side of the fence into fence-sitters, you will marginalise your true enemies.
Closing Gitmo won't make a difference to how the terrorists think of us but Spain may like us again. How does that serve to protect Americans? |
If I happen to uncover anti-American terrorist planning, I will consider reporting it to the proper authorities. As it stood a year ago, I didn't give a shit, even thinking the American government made their bed that way, and now get it lie in it. You deserve it.
It's very unlikely such a thing would happen to me, but in countries like Spain, Turkey (which happens to be a democracy, if you didn't know that), France, Netherlands, India, etc. it is more likely. Wouldn't you like to have more people in the world trust Americ |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2009 : 21:11:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Simon
2) Torturing people is bad PR.
Sure a lot of Muslims hate the US either way, but a lot more are on the fence, or not hating the US enough to launch terror attacks. Torturing people is only giving them a nudge in the wrong direction.
Remember that, after 911, most of the nations in the world, including most of the Muslims nations, were supporting the US. |
Terrorists were not, whether the country they lived in did or did not.
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My point was, a lot of Muslims were disgusted by 911 and supported, or at least did not opposed, the actions of the US to protect itself.
Between the invasion of Iraq, the scandal of Abu Graib and Guantanamo, at lot of these Muslisms moved away from the US and toward the terrorists.
People that were supporting the US have withdrawn their support and people that were only warm-luck toward al Qaida are now actively trying to help it.
So, yes, stopping this political may not make the US significantely safer (it might be too late for that, although the election of Obama seems to earn back cookie points for the US), but starting it certainly did make it less safe... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2009 : 19:09:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
My point was, a lot of Muslims were disgusted by 911 and supported, or at least did not opposed, the actions of the US to protect itself.
Between the invasion of Iraq, the scandal of Abu Graib and Guantanamo, at lot of these Muslisms moved away from the US and toward the terrorists.
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True. I can remember seeing, just a couple of days after 9/11, news coverage of Iranian students taking to the streets holding banners and shouting 'America we support you', and other such expressions of sympathy and understanding. Almost immediately dumbass dubya is branding Iran as part of some non-existent 'axis of evil'. If I were one of those students I would feel betrayed. There are very few people in this world to whom I wish ill, he is one of them. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
| Edited by - The Rat on 01/25/2009 19:10:57 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2009 : 08:56:09 [Permalink]
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| The only people I remember celebrating 911 were Palestinians. But then, they have been engaged in a proxi war with the US for the last 50 years, give them a break... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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President Obama
