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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2009 : 03:26:26
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The creation apologists have the devil's own time getting around this ancient organism. It is known for sure to live for nearly 5,000 years at the least, which makes the elder of them predate the Flood of Biblical fame by a right smart margin. And, of course, it could not have survived that sort of a deluge any better than anything else, including Noah.
Tough and gnarled, highly resistant to drought and growing in small, sparse groves, it inhabits some extremely inhospitable areas -– the exposed tops of a few mountains in the western United States. Most, if not all of the older ones look all but dead and have for centuries. And might for yet more centuries, their dried, twisted trunks bearing only the meanest of foliage around the shattered stubs of long-lost branches. It bears this curse of near-immortality with a resigned, wind-ravaged dignity.
As mentioned, this gives the YEC/Noah's Flood crowd some problems, but ah, they are willing to take up the task! Here's John Woodmorappe's thoughts on it.....
Woodmorappe is a young earth creationist who has practically made his career from trying to refute carbon 14 and other dating techniques, but in his latest article on the Bristlecone, he refers to C-14....
A literal understanding of the biblical chronologies places the Flood no earlier than about 2,500 B.C. and the creation no earlier than about 6,000 B.C. (Allowance for unlisted names in the biblical chronologies pushes back these dates, but not much). Yet the Bristlecone Pine (hereafter BCP) long chronology, comprised of hundreds of live and dead trees, is over 8,000 years long. The presence of fossiliferous sediment under the BCPs rules out any of them being pre-Flood. So, unless we choose to push the Flood back many thousands of years, effectively disregarding biblical chronologies, how can the conflicting chronologies be reconciled? I have studied this question for many years.
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And:
Multiple Annual Rings?
The over 8,000 years of BCP chronology presuppose that no more than one ring ever formed per year. Every so often, claims are made about bristlecone pines having multiple rings per year (Matthews 2006). The “wriggles” encountered in the BCP/C-14 progression are consistent with such a premise (Molen 2008), but there is—at present—no evidence for adult BCPs being able to produce multiple rings per growing season. While doing field work in the BCP forest (Woodmorappe 2003a), and earlier, I had the privilege of meeting many BCP specialists, some of whom had been monitoring BCP growth for nearly fifty years. They were unanimous in encountering not one BCP that ever produced more than one ring per year.
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Sometimes called the Foxtail or Hickory Pine, for no apparent reason, this dwarf conifer ekes out it's impoverished living in very poor, rocky or sandy soils. It requires little nutrition but pollution in the ratified atmosphere of it's habitat will kill it quickly. A variety of birds and rodents feed from it's cones and seeds. It's extremely resinous wood makes it all but impervious to insect infestations.
Younger specimens are favorites with bonsai growers due to their longevity and the shapes they will assume. However, only the youngest examples are suitable. Their root systems are thinner and can adapt more easily to the stress of transplanting. Attempts with older plants become progressively unsuccessful with their age. Most growers start with commercially-sold seeds.
Now, this is all very interesting, but where does it leave Answers in Genesis and the other Flood-floggers? Up the Sanctimonious Slough sans a rudimentary propulsion system is where! They can wail about Carbon-dating and hide trembling under their beds from it, but the tree rings tell no lies – hard, physical, undeniable evidence of age well beyond that of the mythical Flood, Woodmorappe's highly speculative apologetics not withstanding.
Incidentally, we can blame every bit of this nonsense on Bishop Ussher. He's the guy who, having nothing constructive to do one day, sat down and figured out the chronology of the world.
"James Ussher (1581-1656), Archbishop of Armagh, Primate of All Ireland, and Vice-Chancellor of Trinity College in Dublin was highly regarded in his day as a churchman and as a scholar. Of his many works, his treatise on chronology has proved the most durable. Based on an intricate correlation of Middle Eastern and Mediterranean histories and Holy writ, it was incorporated into an authorized version of the Bible printed in 1701, and thus came to be regarded with almost as much unquestioning reverence as the Bible itself. Having established the first day of creation as Sunday 23 October 4004 BC, by the arguments set forth in the passage below, Ussher calculated the dates of other biblical events, concluding, for example, that Adam and Eve were driven from Paradise on Monday 10 November 4004 BC, and that the ark touched down on Mt Ararat on 5 May 2348 BC `on a Wednesday'."
So there! 
We really shouldn't leave this without a brief mention of organisms even more ancient than the Bristlecone -– there are some few known and perhaps more yet to be found. However, these are mere clones of the mother, which died early on. The Bristlecone is an individual and the oldest living creature on Earth. As far as we know.....
So, the next time someone hyperventilates Flood & Creation at you, you can whup him with the Ugly Stick! 
Dang it, I ain't editin' this bitch again! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Edited by - filthy on 01/30/2009 03:38:45
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River Otter
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2009 : 06:26:56 [Permalink]
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Haha! Take that creationist ding-bats! The flood takes another hit. 
Thanks for sharing that Filthy.
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I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero
Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 09:08:33 [Permalink]
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That is so cool.
One day, I will definitely visit the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest.
Similarly, some colonies of creosote Bush in New Mexico are about 12,000 years old... Twice older than earth itself! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 14:34:01 [Permalink]
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Fine article, Filthy!
But: Bristlecones, obviously, were the mysterious "gopher wood" from which the Ark was built. Thus, God gave them special dispensation survive the Flood, and to be as old as they want to be.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 16:02:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Fine article, Filthy!
But: Bristlecones, obviously, were the mysterious "gopher wood" from which the Ark was built. Thus, God gave them special dispensation survive the Flood, and to be as old as they want to be.
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 I hadn't thought of that! Mystery solved, and so simple it's elegant....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 16:29:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Fine article, Filthy!
But: Bristlecones, obviously, were the mysterious "gopher wood" from which the Ark was built. Thus, God gave them special dispensation survive the Flood, and to be as old as they want to be.
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I hadn't thought of that! Mystery solved, and so simple it's elegant....
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Just watch, I'll wager the Creos will steal that idea.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/30/2009 16:42:19 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2009 : 17:07:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Fine article, Filthy!
But: Bristlecones, obviously, were the mysterious "gopher wood" from which the Ark was built. Thus, God gave them special dispensation survive the Flood, and to be as old as they want to be.
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I hadn't thought of that! Mystery solved, and so simple it's elegant....
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Just watch, I'll wager the Creos will steal that idea.
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If they can in any way show that Bristlecones grow on Ararat, I'd guarantee it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 20:16:07 [Permalink]
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| This all reminds me that it's been a while since I heard a creationist claim that this would mean that the Earth is 8,000 years old AT MOST. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 09:25:43 [Permalink]
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Hey, did a YEC just acknowledge there are inconsistencies and errors in the infallible book?
Thats a nice piece of irony all on its own!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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MarcesBlack
New Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 08:32:03 [Permalink]
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Thank you for once again proving that war isn't the most questionable and ignorant concept known to man, but blind faith will take the gold again.
One last thing, dont joke about that hidden field behind Ararat, you know the one with the Mighty Bristlecone named Gohfur Wuud.. I hear they made the ark with. |
How long will emotion control reason in the weak minded? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 08:39:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by MarcesBlack
Thank you for once again proving that war isn't the most questionable and ignorant concept known to man, but blind faith will take the gold again.
One last thing, dont joke about that hidden field behind Ararat, you know the one with the Mighty Bristlecone named Gohfur Wuud.. I hear they made the ark with.
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Heh, indeed, althougth I've heard that they were farming the opium poppy in that field. Could it be that they hallucinated the whole thing?
Welcome to SFN, Marces!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Scattershots: the ugly stick
